Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
44 facing cb 44 facing cb

02-14-2011 , 08:58 AM
Firstly, I played this hand horribly. I think I got overly confident as I had just come back from an M of 3 all the way to 20 in the space of about 15mins. I would never have made the play in the same situation at the beginning of a tournament.

I am posting this hand more for the post flop play because this is often a situation that occurs where an opponent makes a cbet in order to get raised.
I had no reads on the villain so if I thought I was ahead what is my best play? A cbet and a paired board could mean overcards so I can't allow them to draw so perhaps a min raise would have been better?

preflop is probably a fold given the raise but I'm comfortable calling 5-10% to try and flop a set.

Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t600/t1200 Blinds + t150 - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: t28421 M = 9.02
UTG: t137105 M = 43.53
Hero (UTG+1): t60101 M = 19.08
UTG+2: t91466 M = 29.04
MP1: t23868 M = 7.58
MP2: t12705 M = 4.03
CO: t41467 M = 13.16
BTN: t64177 M = 20.37
SB: t26083 M = 8.28

Pre Flop: (t3150) Hero is UTG+1 with 4 4
1 fold, Hero raises to t2400, UTG+2 calls t2400, 3 folds, BTN raises to t8200, 2 folds, Hero calls t5800, 1 fold

Flop: (t21950) 9 2 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets t11500, Hero raises to t51751 all in
44 facing cb Quote
02-14-2011 , 09:26 AM
Your logic is flawed here. If we call a 3bet preflop with 44 (which we shouldn't be doing at these stack sizes, but that's not the point) then we are doing it because we think villain has a strong hand and if we flop a set we will stack him.

You either have implied odds or fold equity, never both - preflop you called (with the wrong odds) because you had implied odds, but on the flop you thought villain no longer had a strong hand and you had fold equity. Your flop decision isn't consistent with your preflop decision.
44 facing cb Quote
02-14-2011 , 09:34 AM
fold pre the first time,
after failing that fold pre the 2nd time,
after failing that check/fold flop,
after failing that make a post on 2+2 and get berated
44 facing cb Quote
02-14-2011 , 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by theginger45
Your logic is flawed here. If we call a 3bet preflop with 44 (which we shouldn't be doing at these stack sizes, but that's not the point) then we are doing it because we think villain has a strong hand and if we flop a set we will stack him.

You either have implied odds or fold equity, never both - preflop you called (with the wrong odds) because you had implied odds, but on the flop you thought villain no longer had a strong hand and you had fold equity. Your flop decision isn't consistent with your preflop decision.
Calling with implied odds with an M of 19 or 20+ is acceptable isn't it? It's less than 10% of my stack.
The rest I can appreciate, it's basically if I flop a set carry on, if not fold.

Perhaps the situation would be a little different with a medium pair as check folding to a cbet is allowing the villain to take the pot for cheap?

Last edited by Bentley; 02-14-2011 at 09:49 AM.
44 facing cb Quote
02-14-2011 , 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentley
Calling with implied odds with an M of 19 or 20+ is acceptable isn't it?
It's less than 10% of my stack.
The rest I can appreciate, it's basically if I flop a set carry on, if not fold.
Perhaps the situation would be a little different with a medium pair as check folding to a cbet is allowing the villain to take the pot for cheap?
There's a huge difference between calling a 3bet and calling an open-raise. The amount you have to call once you've open-raised is less than 10% of your stack, but you have 8200 in the pot preflop out of your ~60k stack once you call the 3bet. Yes, you have implied odds, but your implied odds aren't great enough.

You're also out of position, which makes a MASSIVE difference, and you're not even closing the action preflop. You're not gonna be able to bluff villain out of the pot with your postflop skillz, and pretty much your only move on most flops is gonna be c/f or c/rai.

The situation would be absolutely no different with a middling pair, all the way up to maybe 88, because villain's range is mostly higher pairs and therefore still has you crushed. With 99 or TT this is a nasty spot between 4betting and folding.

I do disagree with furo, however, in that I think opening this preflop is alright if you have a good handle on the table and no-one's getting too out of line.
44 facing cb Quote
02-14-2011 , 10:28 AM
fold to 3bet. i think the open is fine tbh.
44 facing cb Quote
02-14-2011 , 01:31 PM
I probably just limp fold but opening is fine here.

Fold to the 3bet because I don't think we have enough chips to set mine and for it to be profitable we have to get paid on our set 100% of the time and I don't see that happening here.
44 facing cb Quote
02-14-2011 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by furo
after failing that make a post on 2+2 and get berated
the bolded part can be changed to:

-getting sucked out on
and
-not folding pre

and applied to almost all threads. the 2nd one can apply to almost all of my threads.
44 facing cb Quote

      
m