I have TT UTG+2 in this situation. I spoke with two strong players who both gave me completely different answers. Thought this would be a decent discussion point.

Thoughts? Thanks.

EI

PS: couldnt get the hand converter to work, sorry....

okerStars Game #16378023064: Tournament #81876054, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit
- Level XVI (2000/4000) - 2008/03/31 - 00:13:44 (ET)
Table '81876054 180' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: maskedmark (92214 in chips)
Seat 2: Vese (31182 in chips)
Seat 3: Thx4U******* (97074 in chips)
Seat 4: BBallisKing (93830 in chips)
Seat 5: maurollope (44360 in chips)
Seat 6: duugg (40763 in chips)
Seat 7: marlie21 (37477 in chips)
Seat 8: TheUrbanLgnd (143117 in chips)
Seat 9: iSport (91996 in chips)
maskedmark: posts the ante 400
Vese: posts the ante 400
Thx4U*******: posts the ante 400
BBallisKing: posts the ante 400
maurollope: posts the ante 400
duugg: posts the ante 400
marlie21: posts the ante 400
TheUrbanLgnd: posts the ante 400
iSport: posts the ante 400
maurollope: posts small blind 2000
duugg: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to iSport [Td Tc]
marlie21: raises 12000 to 16000
TheUrbanLgnd: calls 16000

iSport:

This is a Fold/Shove spot

Depends on reads I guess, how often is UTG opening? Is flatter competent?

my decision here depends on two things:

- how has the table been lately? if its been really tight and/or passive i may consider limping/set mining

- whats your table image like? if its strong and you havent made any moves recently i raise preflop and come out swinging on the flop

Here's some conversion for you.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t4000 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 (t92214)
MP3 (t31182)
CO (t97074)
Button (t93830)
SB (t44360)
BB (t40763)
UTG (t37477)
UTG+1 (t143117)
Hero (t91996)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T, T.
marlie21: raises 12000 to 16000, TheUrbanLgnd: calls 16000, Hero?

Thanks for the responses....image was fairly standard...maybe a bit on the side of aggressive and opening slightly more than normal due to a nitty table.

UTG+1 is loose but seemed solid. UTG Is calling any shove without question due to stack sizes. UTG opening such a large % of stack there without open shoving seemed fairly strong to me.

I dont have the odds/stack for set mining, right?

EI

can you elaborate here?
hero is sitting on 23 BB's

Tyler, thanks for the conversion.

Good point, I think set mining and hoping for trips is the safest way to play it. If you image image has been tight and you have been quiet lately this might be a good time to open up a little particulary if the table has been passive and put in a raise up to about $30,000 - $35,000. I don't see why this would be a shove/fold situation. But the safest way to play it is to call and hope for a set or undercards to your hand.

Even if the flop is 348 rainbow, dont we have to strongly suspect one of the players has JJ+?

how is set mining with a ~23bb stack good to a 4x raise?

this is a fold unless we know UTG to not play positionally imo. in that case we shove.

fold

4x utg are bad news imo

I like this thinking, unless you have prior knowledge gotta muck this

UTG has 9 big blinds. So everybody advocating a 4x BB raise here is too strong is wrong. I do realize that if a short-stack raises small, often they have a big hand. But here, he is raising pretty strong, and is basically pushing. Clearly his range is much greater than JJ+ (do you really think he would fold 77 or 99 here?).

The UTG+1 cold-call is scary if he is good. If your read is he is loose/mediocre (i.e. doesn't make use of his image to trap you), I would push here. With his dead money and being up against UTG, this is a great spot. If you lose vs. UTG, you still have a nice stack and some play.

fold

Thanks for the feedback everyone....they got it in on the flop. UTG AK, UTG+1 99...

I think thats one of the best cases and I still wouldnt be in good shape in a 3 way AI.

I though for a bit but folded pre.

EI

shove and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

it's the 3r, you are getting pretty short and you need like a million chips to FT, 4x UTG and a flat does look strong i agree, but in the 3r it can be A9 or 88 or jus random utter crap, just shove, TT is way way too strong with your stack size to ever just fold here with like 20 BBs, there is no other way to play this and if he has KK or whatever, unlucky spot, destiny's not with you, etc etc.

everyone who says it isn't a shove is wrong.


flat calling is HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE, a good rule of thumb is if you are calling 8000 preflop for setvalue you need to be able to win 80000, or 12000 you need to be able to win 120000 for it to be profitable in the long run you should never flat here. things like calling a button raise for setvalue you need to be able to win MORE chips then 10x because there is less chance of him stacking off compared to someone raising UTG if you are calling in spots like these for set value you might as well be giving money away!

lots of crappy advice given throughout this thread.

glglgl

wow i completely misread utg's stack to be 374k. i really like shoving here with the ~26k overlay.

Flatting clearly wasnt in my thought process...set mining odds dont exist and you're completely lost on just about any board anyways...it was repop/shove or fold...

ChessKid, I get your points, but in these tournaments I havent seen that many players raising outside the general UTG ranges....is your experience substantially different? What range are you using at these stakes for UTG/UTG2?

it would depend on the read of my opponent for a range to be honest there, but most random 3rs it could be as weak as A8, KJ, etc. 4x UTG raise is scary but you have 20 BBs and you have TT, with that stack size the hand plays itself. if the cold caller shoved you could make a case for folding but the flat could be trash with like AT.

I'm not sure what the experts would agree on. But with the relatively deep nature of your stack, I don't think you have to shove/fold. I like a call PF, then proceed to 'play poker' from there based in the flop and your opponents response to it.

^^^^ NO NO NO NO not ever ever, he is not deep at all. STOP!!! that's like 20% of his stack of call PF, horrible advice *brain explodes*

I agree that its never a call. I'm not completely sure its a shove yet though.

For theory purposes, what if this is a $100 buy in?

it would be super super close and could go either way (and not be bad). JJ and AK is definite call, but in the 3r its a call.

WOW a whole 20% good god no!!!!! Guess what?? You don't have to play TT for set value only. When you are in multiway deep stacked, you can feel out the texture of the flop with your TT and get out if the flop brings a couple of overs and the action heats up. That being said, to be honest (and I hate saying this, because many use it as a cop out) you decision depends heavily on the opponents involved in the hand.

i said nothing about set value. You know how often a jack, queen, king or ace comes on the flop? It will never ever ever in a million years be profitable to flat call preflop, no matter what you say. If flatting is your normal play here, congratulations on giving money away.


and why are you saying he is deep stacked? HE HAS 20 BIG BLINDs.