EDIT : we are 30 bb deep.

Hi, not sure about the decision pre and OTF.
OR is TAG, 14/13, but straight forward, and BB is a huge fish 58/21.

OR times like 10 sec before cbetting

thoughts ?

PokerStars - €27+€3|400/800 Ante 100 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 30,242
BB: 20,649
UTG: 42,608
UTG+1: 32,602
UTG+2: 75,581
MP: 13,000
MP+1: 38,625
CO: 38,940
Hero (BTN): 23,540

9 players post ante of 100, SB posts SB 400, BB posts BB 800

Pre Flop: (pot: 2,100) Hero has 8 8

UTG raises to 1,800, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 1,800 ??, fold, BB calls 1,000

Flop: (6,700, 3 players) 7 J 5
BB checks, UTG bets 2,400, Hero?

wp pre now fold

I think you can 3 bet pre. Take control of the hand and you can rep more flops. Personally I hate set mining here with the effective stacks.

3bet/fold?

Am I wrong to be willing to fold that stack? I don't think 77 is gonna 4bet shove. Prolly 99-Jj 4bet shove. Maybe QQ-AA gets tricky.

This is a spot I'm not too sure of tbh. I don't mind 3 bet call if we think villain can 4bet AQ, AJ.

so you are 3betting 88 in bluff....cool

3 bet preflop is really bad vs the UTG opener. You destroy all value of 88 by doing it if you get 4smashed. Calling pre is totally fine. I could see a flat on the flop in position here imo

Is my assumption that just setmining here is bad with effective stacks?

I would say calling less then 10% of your stack is fine vs UTG who has 40k+
Also, this isn't that awful of a flop for our hand. OP describes opener as pretty much ABC player, so calling the flop isn't that bad in position. We get to see what he does on the turn. It's not a straight set mine call to me. I'm not advocating getting crazy at all with this hand for the record, just think it doesn't always have to be fold on this flop.

So when we advocating just calling here with 88 we need to be able to play a little higher variance post flop and be willing to take some creative lines to win the pot. What types of flops are we happy with and what flops can we represent a hand

as played it seems like we have two options. to float or to raise. i think that puts us in a similar spot to where we would be if we 3bet this hand pre. basically with our hand strength we need to commit chips to take this down.

my line of thinking was not just 3bet bluff per se although one comment seemed to disagree with that line. I think we can 3bet here and if he 4bet stuff fine fold against this opponent. however, i don't think UTG really represents a nut range all that often anymore. 3betting can get us to take this pot down preflop. if he calls then i think villain will be more likely to check this type of flop and we can fire a cbet. or perceived range in taht case will be alot stronger than 88.

without getting into a ridiculous amount of detail I think my line 3betting pre, then be willing to fire a cbet will cost us roughly the same amount of chips as flatting and then having to raise flops like this so i think there is really merit to either line.

i am open to hearing thougths but it helps a ton if you can give a response.

I tend to agree with you.

nope
there is a huge fish on the bb mostly station pre...
we want to play vs him and vs utg who seems pretty tight
there is no reason to 3bet 88(i prefer kj ,ax..etc vs utg obv in bluff)

what are your plans for the hand as played with the above flop?

what are your plans in general on flops we don't hit a set?

as played im folding...utg should know that bb is a calling station
so i guess he s cbetting for value most of the time
btw most of the time im playing for set value vs utg nitty depends on his tendency postflop

this is a good point too tho

I prefer flatting pre.

We don't have to raise the flop, especially with the BB still to act.

I don't think UTG's c-bet looks very strong on this board (just my opinion). plus OP stated that he thinks UTG plays straight-forward. so I think if you flat again on the flop there's a pretty high chance that UTG will let you know if he does or doesn't have it. There's also a number of cards that can come on the turn that may shut him down even when he has a tp/overpair type hand.

interesting thoughts. I'm enjoying this discussion immensely.

Dragon's you advocate flatting postflop. I love considering waiting to see what BB is going to do cause we can easily fold after calling if he makes a move. Assuming he folds though few questions about certain cards hitting the turn :

What do you do if : 9s (villains checks or villains bets similar % on turn)
What do you do if : Kc (villains checks or villains bets similar % on turn)
What do you do if : 2h (villains checks or villains bets similar % on turn)

Close pre, but leading twds flat > fold, not 3 betting as others said

UTG has many high pairs in his range and the flat happy fish will join always to the pot, so looking good if you bink the set

might also do some manouvering on like 488 boards or some K52 if OR shows weakness.

Id just let go this flop, u r just quessing

I only like calling pre here if i have a good read on villians cb range and what he bets..
I mean is he cb every time 3bb after raising 2.1bb pre? Or is he betting stronger with strong hands. Are his bet sizes different in any way on the flop that tells me he is weak? has he open raise folded to 3b often? Some questions you can ask your self before 3b pre or raising flop... Does he cb flop check/fold turns often maybe making just a call better to see his action. I dont like this hand against an unknown but against a known villians tendancies i think you should easily no what to do here and if you dont then pay more attention to whats going on at your tables lol just saying.

call pre fold flop

Pre ok
If you flat pre this is not a flop to fold a pair on.

fish on bb makes it better, still pre is marginal.

Should get/have more info oh him to decide if you can go wider than std setmining.

You must be fun to play against.

yes i am ...stack management ftw

wp pre flop. onf is tricky because the utg tag can obviously be strong alot of time in this spot + the donk on bb will probably call this draw heavy flop maybe even c/r so im leaning to fold the flop but i think that calling in position isn't a bad play either