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22c: gutter facing flop raise

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09-15-2010 , 05:05 PM

itscml

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,723

My only read on villain is that he's a winning mid-stakes reg, moved to the table rather recently. Do you think it's profitable to jam here versus what could be a wide raising range? My image is TAG, a trifle nitty too.

Poker Stars $20+$2 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t300/t600 Blinds + t50 - 9 players - View hand 928434
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: t28330 M = 20.99
SB: t20944 M = 15.51
BB: t29495 M = 21.85
UTG: t9813 M = 7.27
UTG+1: t14850 M = 11
UTG+2: t12018 M = 8.90
Hero (MP1): t24479 M = 18.13
MP2: t23516 M = 17.42
CO: t6684 M = 4.95

Pre Flop: (t1350) Hero is MP1 with 3

3 folds, Hero raises to t1500, 2 folds, BTN calls t1500, 2 folds

Flop: (t4350) 8

(2 players)
Hero bets t2400, BTN raises to t6000, Hero raises to t22929 all in

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09-15-2010 , 07:47 PM

areaman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 13,213

yes, nh. especially because you have the ace of clubs.

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09-15-2010 , 11:31 PM

ndahlhoff10

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 6,224

wouldnt calling followed by more calling be better than shoving

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09-16-2010 , 03:49 AM

Mackerel

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 685

If your image is nitty-ish, I approve of this line.

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09-16-2010 , 05:07 AM

furo

deviation of equilibrium

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 29,639

Quote:

Originally Posted by itscml

My only read on villain is that he's a winning mid-stakes reg, moved to the table rather recently. Do you think it's profitable to jam here versus what could be a wide raising range? My image is TAG, a trifle nitty too.

please explain why you think he flats wide on the BTN and has air in his range here vs someone who seems TAG/decent.

just seeing the hand and BTN beeing a winning midstakes player it seems awful to me cause i dont expect him to a) flat wide 40BB effective vs a TAG and b) raise/fold anything here.

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09-16-2010 , 05:15 AM

Mackerel

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 685

Quote:

Originally Posted by furo

What is villain doing with 99/TT/JJ (not to mention the occasional AK, AQ)? It's a pretty dry flop, and I'd expect a nitty looking player to get some respect with a push here.

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09-16-2010 , 09:35 AM

ssnyc

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 38,129

this is nuts...if you have these thoughts in your head on the flop fold pre

you are not Durrr
you are not Deeb

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09-17-2010 , 04:56 AM

Mackerel

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 685

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssnyc

this is nuts...if you have these thoughts in your head on the flop fold pre

you are not Durrr
you are not Deeb

I'm not a dweeb?

Oh...u said Deeb...ok /identity crisis

I don't really usually reply to snarky posts....what's ur problem ssync?

Last edited by Mackerel; 09-17-2010 at 05:04 AM. Reason: spelled ssync wrong...doh

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09-17-2010 , 05:01 AM

dereds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

I think it's fine after you open but I don't open

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09-17-2010 , 05:03 AM

#10

Mackerel

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 685

Quote:

Originally Posted by dereds

I think it's fine after you open but I don't open

I don't either in general, but if I get here like this, I'm generally not inclined to just go away quietly.

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09-17-2010 , 05:10 AM

#11

sharkfishing

stranger

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3

Everybody on that table will know you are on a draw.
Bad move

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09-17-2010 , 05:11 AM

#12

dereds

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Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkfishing

Everybody on that table will know you are on a draw.
Bad move

how?

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09-17-2010 , 05:11 AM

#13

Mackerel

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 685

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkfishing

Everybody on that table will know you are on a draw.
Bad move

I'd play a flopped set or AA the same way, so I don't see how they can "know" this.

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09-17-2010 , 05:41 AM

#14

M1cKmAcK

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 3,713

this is just pretty silly. First of all, I'm not a big fan of pre, but w/e. And you really don't have any fold equity. I wouldn't even call this fps, it's just dumb tbh.

sick image post tho!

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09-17-2010 , 05:49 AM

#15

Mackerel

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 685

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1cKmAcK

this is just pretty silly. First of all, I'm not a big fan of pre, but w/e. And you really don't have any fold equity. I wouldn't even call this fps, it's just dumb tbh.

sick image post tho!

I would contend that a nitty player has more fold equity than you are giving credit for. But I've been wrong before, so whatever.

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09-17-2010 , 06:21 AM

#16

ssnyc

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Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 38,129

people don't like to fold...

the "snarky" post was a joke based on a post from MTTC...if you did not read the post I doubt you will understand the reference...

My point was that if we are going to take a a spewy (and yes I find it spewy) post line than maybe we need to consider if opening is a good idea

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09-17-2010 , 06:24 AM

#17

dereds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

Well I don't like to impose my preflop ranges on others and so while I am not opening here I am not going to suggest it's bad I'll leave it to others to consider whether they feel it's a profitable spot.

However the hate for post I think is somewhat overstated? Like would there be the same hate if OP had decided to B3B AK here with the Ac?

And yeah I get the fact that with AcKx we have better equity against KcXx but I think against the rest of his range they are going to be pretty similar.

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09-17-2010 , 06:25 AM

#18

Mackerel

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 685

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssnyc

Ok then, I missed the reference. I agree about the idea of not opening here (it would be rare for me to open this), I just don't see myself giving up easily with a nitty image in this spot. We're good.

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09-17-2010 , 06:29 AM

#19

ssnyc

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Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 38,129

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mackerel

Ok then, I missed the reference. .

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...t-durr-845691/

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09-17-2010 , 06:34 AM

#20

Mackerel

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 685

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssnyc

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...t-durr-845691/

ok...that's pretty funny...

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09-17-2010 , 06:42 AM

#21

dereds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

ok against a range of sthing like

QQ-55,KcQc,KcJc,QcJc,JcTc hero has 31% equity, when villain calls hero actually needs 39% equity so hero's equity at this stage is 16308 and he has 20529 behind for a loss of 4221. If villain folds hero makes 12750 so if villain raise folds the flop 24% of the time then hero is good to jam.

Like it's very debateable as to whether villain should raise fold with that frequency but given that hero has been nitty and a ton of his preflop range misses that board and villain only needs hero to bet fold 45% of the time for the raise to show an immediate profit then I'm not sure it's as bad as some suggest.

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09-17-2010 , 06:42 AM

#22

mattwut1

adept

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,032

if hes moved to the table recently, have we had time to build up a "nitty" image with him, people dont always notice this like they would a LAG especially when there mass tabling

i dont think the player u descirbe is raising to fold, so im not really a fan

my hate would be greater FWIW if we had AK as we are likely in worse shape when called

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09-17-2010 , 12:47 PM

#23

itscml

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,723

Dudes I'm not a nit. I'm a spewtard.

Villain may view me as such, which is why I think he's raising c-bets frequently on this raggedy-ass board.

TBH I think it might be most profitable to shove my entire range here ... overpairs, sets, whatever. Calling looks way too strong and jamming is a nice way of merging everything. I think it works here because, as Mickmack said, all the strong stuff is still in my range and villain's raising range is awfully weak - what raises this board? - unless he's also trying to pull off some kind of nice merge too.

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09-17-2010 , 03:10 PM

#24

BakinC00kies

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,717

i'm a spazz, i like the shove

Last edited by BakinC00kies; 09-17-2010 at 03:10 PM. Reason: it's really close irl, would rather do it with some kinds of reads

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09-17-2010 , 04:42 PM

#25

Verstehen

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,694

Quote:

Originally Posted by itscml

Dudes I'm not a nit. I'm a spewtard.

Villain may view me as such, which is why I think he's raising c-bets frequently on this raggedy-ass board.

TBH I think it might be most profitable to shove my entire range here ... overpairs, sets, whatever. Calling looks way too strong and jamming is a nice way of merging everything. I think it works here because, as Mickmack said, all the strong stuff is still in my range and villain's raising range is awfully weak - what raises this board? - unless he's also trying to pull off some kind of nice merge too.

WTF. If your range includes A3o it always include a ton of other stuff that has no pair/no draw/one overcard. It's just not right to say you should b/3b shove your whole range here. You should probably call and bluffcatch with some of your range, fold some of it, and shove some of it.

I also don't understand why villain's range has to be weak here, it can include overpairs and sets, obv not so much two pairs but people are saying ITT "oh he could raise/fold TT on this board..." Come on, it's MTT-land not cash people don't fold pairs.

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