Case study of how horribly things can go wrong when a guy with a "rep" spirals out of control : the Heinzelmann fiasco

With a system like pokerrep, this guy wouldn't be owing 200k+ or whatever it is, he may have pulled off a 5K scam, end of story.

I remember the heinzelmann one, he tried to get me too. I showered him when he messaged me out of nowhere with an exclamation point and smiley face-laden message, which set off my bs detector immediately.

I'm not sure if people would be open to the possibility of having their outstanding debts be public information, but if lenders / stakers insisted upon it as a matter of course they wouldn't really have a choice. This does exist in the real world in the form of credit reports, but making such a system secure, accurate, and unexploitable would be the challenge.

Its a fine idea, no doubt about it. But there must be checks in place. There will need to be some serious thought for how the site will function in regard to both the accuser and the accused. For instance, what is bparis' recourse if I submit his name to this site over some minor beef that I exaggerate and/or outright lie about?

Obviously I'm not the only one to ponder this exact scenario weighing pros/cons to a site like this (someone may have already mentioned this-- I missed it). But its one of many questions that needs to be answered in order for this type of experiment to stand any chance of being both successful AND effective.

For me the key is organizing the information. Clearly, a lot of it will be quite sensitive. I think the majority of people will not want things like their outstanding debt or even their staking situation be in the public domain, and they shouldn't be, and don't need to be.

My oustanding debt in the community is a matter between me and my creditors. However, if I do business with someone else in the community, this person may decide they want to have access to that info to make their decision.

I could come up to you and ask you for a temporary loan of 1k for example. Imo it should be standard procedure that you do a background check on pokerrep, and ask to have access to certain private information.
You could ask for my adress/passport i.d for example. You could decide to ask for my screennames or a screenshot of my account balance or whatever it is you think you need to verify my story. But most importantly, I think it is natural that you inquire about my debt situation within the community, and be able to verify the facts.
You might just ask for the proof (that pokerrep would provide instantly; if I authorize them to temporarily disclose the info to you specifically) that I don't currently owe anyone some money.
For larger sums, you might want access to even more information, such as my recent loan history, a list of the pokerrep members I've had this or that financial interaction with, etc.

If I don't want to provide you with the info that you want, then you don't loan me the money. If I give you the info and you decide to give me the loan, we type up the virtual contract and upload it to pokerrep for future reference in case of dispute. My debt is automatically updated on the private pokerrep databases, that way I can't pull a Heizelmann and borrow 5k from 20 people without them knowing what's going on.

I took a chance on an angry kid here years ago. In terms of standard value, he now holds a significant marker which I will honor regardless of the value he has gained from the exchange. On a personal level this is significant, because I would otherwise not do such things as a tourist.

I agree that taking a shot in the dark on people is good on blind faith. However, it takes a certain temperament and risk tolerance to do this.

Good luck with the initiative, as long as you realize you are not going to be able to contain the environment completely.

There will always be a rail and tolerance. Otherwise, someone would not have won three bracelets across a remarkable time span, don't you think?

Take it easy.

i mentioned in the other thread, a rating system like ebay sellers have would filter out a lot of the noise

anything that is sensitive and shouldnt be made public can be put into a private profile page where u can grant access

EDIT: nice to see this being discussed, it is an important initiative and would be so valuable to the poker community

Wow I backed MaxH for a year before this, and I have to say that had anyone asked me to vouch for his trustworthiness I would have done so in a shot.

This is actually the first I have heard of this somehow----crazy.

Do it kind of like Yelp.

Each player has own review page.

If you leave negative reviews you must have evidence to back up claim.

Elect a few highly respected people to be arbitrators should any disputes come up.

Charge a small fee (one time or monthly) to cover the costs of site/keep out trolls.

Maybe figure out a way to pay the arbitrators.

Have a black list and make the users page be "XXX is a scammer/thief" and SEO it so it comes up on google search.

I PMed you Bparis

numberonedonk,

I could not think of a way to sort things that lacks more class than your solution.

I know it is not anywhere close to the site you are proposing but wanted to point out this forum to those that may have missed it.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/23...back-disputes/

This seems absurd/insane and highlights our current problems and the need for a project like this; even when the info is out there there is no guarantee people will see it. And this is just within one fora.





I feel that people often choose the wrong angle on this. If we want it to work well, it can't be a site based on "punishing the scum" and "outing scammers". It should be a well organized community website that centralizes information about players and their multiple financial interactions, encouraging/rewarding active and honest members, with the great added value of detecting and clearing the community of its bad apples.

People are going to be reluctant to join a site that is just about ruining scammers life. Why would I set up a profile and give valuable info to site, just so that in the eventuality that I mess up my career can be ruined and my e-reputation tarnished for good?

This site for me is more about people connecting, meeting IRL, setting up poker houses, swapping pieces in big events, helping each other out with backing deals, loaning/borrowing to get each other out of jams, finding good coaches/students, etc.
Basically organizing a way for members to fully enjoy the benefits of being part of the community.



If you look at the couchsurfing model, two members could create a connection/friendship and gives details about it : "Close friend", "Good friend", "Acquantance", "Online friend", How long have you know each other, etc.
Regardless of if I had "friend requested" member B, I could post a comment on his profile detailing our interaction, and B could post one right back on mine. They are connected, as in if member C reads Bs profile they will see my comment, and also Bs comment on me.
The comments could be categorized, Very Negative, Negative, Neutral, Positive, Very Positive.
The vast majority of the comments were in the Positive/Very positive range, and whenever there was a Negative or Very Negative one, you could immediately see both sides of the argument.

So you wouldn't be submitting bparis' name to the site, you would be placing a commentary on his profile, visible to other members. And bparis would have the opportunity to publicly explain/defend his side by publicly putting a comment on your profile.

What you describe is an idealized family affair.

The reality isn't so simple and your elaborations perhaps a little superfluous.

That aside, I actually agree with you though. Go figure.

It's more about efficiency than class, I think numberonedonk brings up some good points.

We'll need to know how to deal with accusations that lack evidence, to think about potential arbitration in some scenarios, to think of ways to cover the costs of the site, and how to handle the blacklist.

Thanks, I knew about the negative feedback thread but not about the subforum. 2+2 is a vast place

I don't know if my description was too idealistic. I'm very aware of the ugly sides of human nature and what to what lows people can fall. That is the whole point of the project, to make our environment more secure.

I've seen how efficient a profiles/comments model can be in helping a community grow and self-regulate, and I do believe that a system like this would provide a lot of people with great opportunities.

A few people deciding to trust me for no particular reason other that they felt I was honest/deserving completely changed the course of my life/career, so I know first hand how impactful poker connections can be.

A collective subjectivity is essential if this type of forum is to work.

As it is, I have said my piece. Don't be afraid to be wrong.

Good luck.

You are assuming 100% registration participation, such as it is on couchsurfing I'd imagine. How will you implement a system in which every single backer/horse is registered with an active profile on the site? Or will a profile be created upon committing a scam and then said scammer can protest the claim by creating an account at that point in time?

Also, if its a private site with no reporting to search engines where does pressure to pay (along with public shaming) come into play?

What I really like about the site is the idea that the wrong these people have done can continue to haunt them, assuming you make profiles for all the scum past and present (i.e. MIturtle etc etc etc).

Thanks.

I'm not saying that by having one negative feedback from someone that you automatically get black listed but if you have stolen/scammed/etc and found guilty by the arbitrators/community then you should be put on blast.

i dont think too much information should be able too be seen publicly. this kind of site needs a lot of moderation imo. id try to build it like somesort of facebook/datingsite. all backers should make their horses open up a profile, and everyone else should refuse buy/sell/swap action with anyone who doesnt have a profile on that site.

the profiles should still be "hidden" for everyone who is not a "friend". once there is any sort of disagreement, mods would be able to visibly flag the account for all users (could be something along the lines of "has an unfinished staking arrangement with XY).

there would be a timeline where everything is documented a la "has successfully ended his staking arrangement with XY". which would only show after the backer confirms it on his end.

The issue with open comments is that random hater could just try to constantly ruin your reputation. it would be way more moderation needed for a system like that. there should still be an option for people who are not "friends" to report, although it would go to the mod's inbox and would not cause any wild speculations in public.

it should also have some kind of visible point system a la ebay: "350 successfully ended deals | 2 sorted disagreements | 0 open disagreements | 0 unsuccessfully ended deals" for instance.

lastly I dont think its really anyone's business who I make business with, except people who are involved. this would only discourage people to sign up.

Good post, agreed

Just to be clear n1donk, I wasn't the one condemning your ideas for their lack of class, I said you were raising valid points.

I think you misunderstood me. I am absolutely not trying to sweep our problems under the rug. Of course pokerrep should have parts dealing with the scammers, that was why the idea came up in the first place.

I'm just saying that the philosophy should be oriented towards something more postive, something like building a secure community or creating opportunities for deserving players.

We want 100 percent user registration. To deal with the bad apples, we need to create a community of ethical players that the site brings value to.

"Join Blacklistpoker, so we can efficiently control you aren't scamming anyone" isn't going to draw the crowds.

You absolutely need the possibility of bad reviews. But the site can't be all about bad reviews.

Thanks for your clarity and concrete approach. This is the kind of thing I'm envisioning.

Not a lot of info needs to be public. As you said, it's not many peoples business if I'm staked/selling shares/in debt/loaning money etc., and members need to know their privacy is well protected.

With regards to your random haters point, when I meant comments I didn't mean open, anonymous comments. I meant comments from profile A on profile B. Given that the profiles would be linked to real life info and not that easy to set up, I think that moderation wouldn't be that hard. Random haters would get warned and banned pretty easily. There would be strict rules as to the form and content of comments. No senseless vitriol. ("Very Negative. ***** slowroller AA no good Karmaaaaaaaaaa")

Yes, the goal is widespread participation. A well organized site would be +ev for all members involved (except the wannabe scammers of course), so I don't think building a community would be inherently difficult.

A blacklist centralizing the info regarding past offenders (and with proper SEO) is part of the concept, but we need to focus on preventing scamming situations in the future, by building an organized, self-regulating community.

No worries, I understood that. The last few posts in this thread are good. I think the idea about it being private is pretty good.

Be very careful with fact/opinions, would be saddening to see some messy defamation of character lawsuit or something. Other than that, fantastic idea.