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16s: Did i mess this up postflop? 16s: Did i mess this up postflop?

03-26-2010 , 01:05 PM
Im a station. Vilain stats 33/7/3.1. Also donkbet stat was 100%(7) over 82 hands filtered. I was ready to fold river but then made sucha weird bet.

What do we think of this?

Poker Stars $15+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP1: t1390 M = 18.53
MP2: t1750 M = 23.33
CO: t610 M = 8.13
Hero (BTN): t1815 M = 24.20
SB: t1470 M = 19.60
BB: t1505 M = 20.07
UTG: t815 M = 10.87
UTG+1: t2605 M = 34.73
UTG+2: t1540 M = 20.53

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is BTN with Q A
6 folds, Hero raises to t125, SB calls t100, 1 fold

Flop: (t300) Q 8 K (2 players)
SB bets t150, Hero calls t150

Turn: (t600) 7 (2 players)
SB bets t200, Hero calls t200

River: (t1000) J (2 players)
SB bets t150, Hero calls t150
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-26-2010 , 01:08 PM
Given he's led 7 times I play it same
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-26-2010 , 01:09 PM
Raise the flop against this type, don't let him just see more cards or allow cards to fall that could scare us off our hand. If he shoves, we can probably fold. His donking is incredibly weak, he often as BP, mp, & rarely a huge hand. This type will finally check a flop when they do hit a strong hand like TP or better.

If he flats & then donks the turn, shove.

If he flats & then checks turn, check then call river.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-26-2010 , 02:04 PM
i'd just call him down
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03-26-2010 , 02:07 PM
I'd call him down too. Obviously can't fold the river unless you are 95% sure you're beat.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-26-2010 , 02:16 PM
I don't see any other reasonable line. He has Kx pretty often, but he also has some random crap pretty often, and since you don't know, you just keep the pot small and feel like idiot when it comes to SD - either b/c he has Kx and got max value out of you, or he has random crap and you regret you didn't get enough
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-26-2010 , 03:49 PM
I'm surprised at some of the responses.

A villain who always donk bets has an insane range here. They usually bet regardless of hand.

I def call down on a more dry flop, but I would want to know where I am immediately on this type of flop.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-26-2010 , 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruFloridaGator
I def call down on a more dry flop, but I would want to know where I am immediately on this type of flop.
+1, I prefer your line TFG, as his range is composed of plenty of semi-bluffs
completely agree that he's more likely to check his monsters here after donking again and again, accompanied by lightbulb in villain's head that he is a genius

Raise to 425, prolly fold to a shove although I wouldn't expect him to often
I think we can consider this a value raise
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-26-2010 , 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruFloridaGator
I'm surprised at some of the responses.

A villain who always donk bets has an insane range here. They usually bet regardless of hand.

I def call down on a more dry flop, but I would want to know where I am immediately on this type of flop.
I agree, he donked 7/7 times, i expect to be ahead almost always so i raise flop and commit myself for the turn shove
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-27-2010 , 11:39 AM
Raise/folding flop just seems like unnecessary spew to me. It almost seems like a "raise for information." If we think he has an insanely wide donking range, why raise/fold investing a third our stack in this hand when there's still a reasonable chance we're ahead and he could be gambling with a draw? That's why I prefer calling down and re-evaluating turns and rivers.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-27-2010 , 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrismystero
Raise/folding flop just seems like unnecessary spew to me. It almost seems like a "raise for information." If we think he has an insanely wide donking range, why raise/fold investing a third our stack in this hand when there's still a reasonable chance we're ahead and he could be gambling with a draw? That's why I prefer calling down and re-evaluating turns and rivers.
Because we're just allowing him to draw to his hand for free, and by the time we have called him down, we will have invested nearly as much with no opportunity to get him to fold. We can't guarantee he will continue to donk small, callable amounts either.

If this is a dry board, then this is completely different & absolutely standard to call down & allow him to value town himself.

Lastly, calling him down is hardly a bad option, and you can clearly argue either way. If we were shorter, than raising the flop would be bad option. However, we can't be this passive against someone who donks EVERY TIME. Are we going to fold the turn if he decides to donk 500?
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-27-2010 , 01:04 PM
I'm calling down against a guy like this.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-27-2010 , 01:07 PM
Well played.

Raise/folding this flop is not an option with these stacks. If we raise to 450 and he shoves, we have to call. We are getting the right price against his range on such a drawy board.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-27-2010 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjun13
Well played.

Raise/folding this flop is not an option with these stacks. If we raise to 450 and he shoves, we have to call. We are getting the right price against his range on such a drawy board.
I still think TFG's line is superior, in part, because villain hardly ever jams the flop after he auto-donk bets and gets raised. As stated by others ITT, his donk bet skews his range, making it much more likely that he will either 1) Fold or 2) Flat, in which case we're in a better position to make a decision on turn.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-27-2010 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyP
I still think TFG's line is superior, in part, because villain hardly ever jams the flop after he auto-donk bets and gets raised. As stated by others ITT, his donk bet skews his range, making it much more likely that he will either 1) Fold or 2) Flat, in which case we're in a better position to make a decision on turn.
If he's donking with air, I'm happy to let him spew 2 more streets, I don't see the benefit of folding out hands we beat here.
To me it seems as if reasing is almost turning our hand into a bluff, which does not seem necessary to me.
As Arjun says, raising gives a very awkward pot size and basically commits us to the hand once we make another bet.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-27-2010 , 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deurdy
If he's donking with air, I'm happy to let him spew 2 more streets, I don't see the benefit of folding out hands we beat here.
To me it seems as if reasing is almost turning our hand into a bluff, which does not seem necessary to me.
As Arjun says, raising gives a very awkward pot size and basically commits us to the hand once we make another bet.
You make good points, but I don't I see the flop raise as a bluff; it's more of a thin value raise because we're most likely ahead, but given flop texture and villain's stats and tendencies, any weak to moderate king is still well within his range, and because of this, calling 3 streets becomes a daunting proposition anytime villain makes a decent-sized bet on the turn.

By raising we continue our representation of strength from preflop, and I think it's possible villain may actually fold the weakest of his kings to a flop raise, as well as alot of hands we beat, but it also gets value from loose calls with things like straight and flush draws and weaker queens, all well within his range here. Moreover, raising makes it significantly less likely that we get pushed out of the hand by a good-sized villain bet on the turn, which happens quite often.
16s: Did i mess this up postflop? Quote
03-27-2010 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyP
I still think TFG's line is superior, in part, because villain hardly ever jams the flop after he auto-donk bets and gets raised. As stated by others ITT, his donk bet skews his range, making it much more likely that he will either 1) Fold or 2) Flat, in which case we're in a better position to make a decision on turn.
If he is donk betting 100%, why are we raising? He is betting hands like J7o then. AQo does very well against a 100% donking range, we have position, and we have a good hand.

Just because raise/folding makes the hand easy to play doesn't make it the correct play.
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03-27-2010 , 04:21 PM
If you raise villains donk bet after the flop, what is your turn and river play if he calls?
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03-27-2010 , 04:37 PM
what is the definition of a donkbet stat?
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03-27-2010 , 04:47 PM
donkey motha sucka
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