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 9 mans  9 mans

10-22-2009 , 12:52 PM
Hand #1
Poker Stars $15+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+2: t1455 M = 19.40
MP1: t1580 M = 21.07
MP2: t1650 M = 22
CO: t1405 M = 18.73
BTN: t1580 M = 21.07
SB: t1515 M = 20.20
BB: t1855 M = 24.73
UTG: t1280 M = 17.07
Hero (UTG+1): t1180 M = 15.73

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is UTG+1 with A K
1 fold, Hero raises to t125, 4 folds, BTN raises to t1580 all in, 2 folds, Hero calls t1055 all in

Flop: (t2435) 4 K 2 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t2435) 3 (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t2435) 6 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Spoiler:
Final Pot: t2435
BTN shows As Qs (high card Ace)
Hero shows Ah Kh (a pair of Kings)
Hero wins t2435




Hand #2
Poker Stars $15+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP1: t1730 M = 11.53
MP2: t1535 M = 10.23
CO: t1285 M = 8.57
BTN: t1035 M = 6.90
SB: t1900 M = 12.67
BB: t1965 M = 13.10
UTG: t1250 M = 8.33
Hero (UTG+1): t1420 M = 9.47
UTG+2: t1380 M = 9.20

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is UTG+1 with K A
1 fold, Hero raises to t259, 4 folds, BTN calls t259, 2 folds

Flop: (t668) 5 8 T (2 players)
Hero bets t1161 all in, BTN calls t776 all in

Turn: (t2220) 9 (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t2220) J (2 players - 2 are all in)

Spoiler:
Final Pot: t2220
BTN shows Th Qh (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Hero shows Kc As (high card Ace)
BTN wins t2220




Hand #3
Poker Stars $15+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: t1355 M = 9.03
BTN: t2674 M = 17.83
SB: t510 M = 3.40
BB: t2062 M = 13.75
UTG: t1385 M = 9.23
Hero (UTG+1): t1800 M = 12
MP1: t2369 M = 15.79
MP2: t1345 M = 8.97

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is UTG+1 with Q Q
UTG raises to t240, Hero raises to t650, 3 folds, BTN calls t650, 3 folds

Flop: (t1690) 5 J K (2 players)
Hero bets t1150 all in, BTN calls t1150

Turn: (t3990) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t3990) 2 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Spoiler:
Final Pot: t3990
BTN shows Kd As (two pair, Kings and Fives)
Hero shows Qc Qs (two pair, Queens and Fives)
BTN wins t3990




Hand #4
Poker Stars $15+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t300/t600 Blinds + t50 - 3 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: t4040 M = 3.85
Hero (BB): t3755 M = 3.58
BTN: t5705 M = 5.43

Pre Flop: (t1050) Hero is BB with A 5
BTN raises to t5655 all in, 1 fold, Hero calls t3105 all in

Flop: (t7860) 2 6 Q (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t7860) K (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t7860) 9 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Spoiler:
Final Pot: t7860
Hero shows Ac 5d (high card Ace)
BTN shows 7s 7d (a pair of Sevens)
BTN wins t7860
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 01:15 PM
Reads I say! Reads!!!

1 is a fold vs a good player, call vs anyone who is aggro.

2 is fine imo vs pretty much anyone.

3 I like your line. Unless BTN is nitty... then I prob check call but folding is prob better since everything got there.

4 Depends a ton on how wide villain is, but I'd rather call with KTs tbh.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 01:23 PM
1. Agree with Castlebravo.

2. Im just open shoving this pre.

3. Shoving pre.

4. Agree with Castlebravo.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 01:32 PM
#1: Meh. Standard for some. A more nitty player could fold in your shoes. Depends a lot on how often you think villain will fold to your shove or call with a worse Ace.

#2: Terrible donk Cbet on the flop. You bet to a) get value from your strong hands, or b) push out better hands. Your bet looks like a small pp or two overs. So it's pretty unlikely you can get something worse than AK to come along, and even more unlikely something better will fold. I either cbet about 1/2 the pot (folding to a reraise and re-evaluating turn), check and call/fold to villain bet based on read of villain (eg I'll call a more aggressive villain and fold to a nitty one).

#3: Not a terrible line, but could use some work. Shoving pre instead of raising to 1/3 your stack is a stronger line with QQ because QQ is so vulnerable to the A and King high hands randoms call with. As played pre, any A high flop creates a super tough spot, and K high flops are also a little tricky. In this case, the K high dd flop, shoving (2/3 pot) is iffy, but a very read dependent. The fact that villain flat called your 3bet pre for 20% of his stack is pretty scary and, in a good player, is most likely very strong (AK, KK+). In a bad player, it can also mean a pretty good hand with a fit or fold plan for the flop. If the former, your shove is running into something ahead of QQ, and if the latter, then you probably aren't getting paid off very often when you're ahead (maybe by AJ or a fd), but will surely be called by anything that beats QQ.

#4: Get SNGWiz for these sorts of spots. This is a pretty standard situation you'll see often if you play enough. The answer is always based on villain's pushing range. In this case, if villain is pushing more than about 40%, it's +EV. Any tighter and you're losing money in the long run.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furiotoo

#2: Terrible donk Cbet on the flop. You bet to a) get value from your strong hands, or b) push out better hands. Your bet looks like a small pp or two overs. So it's pretty unlikely you can get something worse than AK to come along, and even more unlikely something better will fold. I either cbet about 1/2 the pot (folding to a reraise)
with effective stacks just over pot sized, we can't bet/fold, if we bet half pot and he shoves, we'll be getting ~5:1 and have to call anyway, i think shoving, CRAI and c/f are all arguable options, i probably shove.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CastleBravo79
Reads I say! Reads!!!

1 is a fold vs a good player, call vs anyone who is aggro.

2 is fine imo vs pretty much anyone.

3 I like your line. Unless BTN is nitty... then I prob check call but folding is prob better since everything got there.

4 Depends a ton on how wide villain is, but I'd rather call with KTs tbh.
agree with castle on most things.

hand 3 is a tough spot, you can check/fold vs anybody good, every hand in the range 'JJ+, AK' beats us, and if we widen his range a bit to say, TT+, AQ+, we can still check/fold because how often is he shoving TT if we check to him on this board? he would have to be shoving his whole range when checked to him for this not to be a check/fold, or for his preflop range to be really wide.

hand 4 it's very doubtful the avg villain shoves wide enough to call.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 03:11 PM
Thanks guys, I just switched from 45 mans b/c the variance is ridiculous (haven't given them up but not going to grind them for a while)

I am still getting use to being able to be super nitty and survive; in a 45 you have to push edges due to the faster blinds and bigger field. Also I didn't use a HUD for the 45s.

Hand 1 Villain was terribad

Hand 3 looking back on it, I think I should have raised to 1100 (telling Villain im pot commited) or just shove

Hand 4 I should have folded b/c villain was pretty tight
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeypoker
with effective stacks just over pot sized, we can't bet/fold, if we bet half pot and he shoves, we'll be getting ~5:1 and have to call anyway, i think shoving, CRAI and c/f are all arguable options, i probably shove.
Sure betting commits you in case of villain call or raise. The question is: "Is villain more likely to call a shove or a smaller cbet with the part of his range we have beat?" If we assume villain is never folding better, but has a non-zero chance of calling a smaller bet with worse that would otherwise be folded to a push, then cbetting half pot makes sense.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 04:20 PM
Poker Stars $15+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (CO): t1500 M = 50
BTN: t1490 M = 49.67
SB: t1565 M = 52.17
BB: t1500 M = 50
UTG: t1500 M = 50
UTG+1: t1500 M = 50
UTG+2: t1445 M = 48.17
MP1: t1500 M = 50
MP2: t1500 M = 50

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is CO with Q Q
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to t60, MP1 raises to t160, Hero ???


Both are tight. Fold or flat? If flat, do we stack off on most flops?
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 04:25 PM
fold.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeypoker
fold.
You can't win if you fold

...

...

...

I didn't mention that the reraiser is German and Germans are ****ing crazy


... jk, folded
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamPro
You can't win if you fold

...

...

...

I didn't mention that the reraiser is German and Germans are ****ing crazy


... jk, folded
lol.

also, just noticed the avatar, nice.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamPro
Poker Stars $15+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (CO): t1500 M = 50
BTN: t1490 M = 49.67
SB: t1565 M = 52.17
BB: t1500 M = 50
UTG: t1500 M = 50
UTG+1: t1500 M = 50
UTG+2: t1445 M = 48.17
MP1: t1500 M = 50
MP2: t1500 M = 50

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is CO with Q Q
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to t60, MP1 raises to t160, Hero ???


Both are tight. Fold or flat? If flat, do we stack off on most flops?
I say flat, opener could have 77-AA and AQ/AK, reraiser could have TT-AA and AK so I think flatting qq is fine here. You will have position throughout the hand so you don't have to just donk-committ with any 3 card flop lower than A/K.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULOST2AKID
I say flat, opener could have 77-AA and AQ/AK, reraiser could have TT-AA and AK so I think flatting qq is fine here. You will have position throughout the hand so you don't have to just donk-committ with any 3 card flop lower than A/K.
Well flatting isn't that bad, but with nothing invested i don't see the point in calling this 3bet against a range we have ~53% equity against.
and then there's the first raiser, we're a bit more ahead of his range, but then he can also 4bet when we flat.

I wouldn't be too suprised if some good players told me they flat here, as we are in postion.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULOST2AKID
I say flat, opener could have 77-AA and AQ/AK, reraiser could have TT-AA and AK so I think flatting qq is fine here. You will have position throughout the hand so you don't have to just donk-committ with any 3 card flop lower than A/K.
thats wat I did but when Villain#2 (the German) led out for 300, I mean wat do you do there? If we didnt plan to stack off on a 'safe' board then why flat?
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 05:04 PM
The problem with flatting here is that what are you gonna do when utg reships. Clear fold imo if it went 60 flat then i be more comfortable to 3 bet.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 05:48 PM
im folding unless the 3better is like the biggest fish alive
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 06:33 PM
Fold QQ really after one pre reraise?? In a $15 SNG with crazy fast blinds you may not get a better hand the rest of the way. I would flat pre and see what happens. If UTG repops than you have a decision to make but you at least to have to get some money in this pot. If nobody repops pre you will at least be able to make an educated/informed decision on the flop. You may have to bite the bullet and stack off on a nonscary board and cry when someone shows you AA/KK but since those are really the two hands to be afraid I think you are crazy to not flat this and see what happens.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 09:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgy20
Fold QQ really after one pre reraise?? In a $15 SNG with crazy fast blinds you may not get a better hand the rest of the way. I would flat pre and see what happens. If UTG repops than you have a decision to make but you at least to have to get some money in this pot. If nobody repops pre you will at least be able to make an educated/informed decision on the flop. You may have to bite the bullet and stack off on a nonscary board and cry when someone shows you AA/KK but since those are really the two hands to be afraid I think you are crazy to not flat this and see what happens.
the blinds dont go up that fast compare to other games

also we haven't invested anything if you fold pre, even if you flat and fold on the flop its only 160t
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgy20
Fold QQ really after one pre reraise?? In a $15 SNG with crazy fast blinds you may not get a better hand the rest of the way. I would flat pre and see what happens. If UTG repops than you have a decision to make but you at least to have to get some money in this pot. If nobody repops pre you will at least be able to make an educated/informed decision on the flop. You may have to bite the bullet and stack off on a nonscary board and cry when someone shows you AA/KK but since those are really the two hands to be afraid I think you are crazy to not flat this and see what happens.
What you're generally saying isn't that bad, but i do think you have some basic flaws in your thinking, e.g. the fact we might not get a better hand is irrelevant, we will almost definitely get better spots, even if we don't have AA or KK in those spots. More importantly, there's no reason to make a bad play just because it could be the best starting hand you see.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamPro
the blinds dont go up that fast compare to other games

also we haven't invested anything if you fold pre, even if you flat and fold on the flop its only 160t
Not sure if this is agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. I will take it that it is agreeing with me and is why I think you have to call this. If you call and fold due to UTG popping, poor flop texture, or whatever we have lost a measly 160 out of our 1500 stack. I don't see that as severly handicapping your ability to win the tourney. Let's be honest in the small stakes tourney there are plenty of players that are making these moves with far lesser hands than QQ and we may be best.

Pompey- I do get that it is more about situations than the actual cards. I just don't think this is as bad a situation as it looks. There are basically two hands that we are afraid of AA/KK. Everything else we can read based on the flop. If you know the players that are making these moves there may be more of a reason to fold (or call I suppose). If this is the WSOP with huge deep stacks for 10,000 than I agree with the fold. As is I think you have to be willing to take some chances and thus I would call.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgy20
Not sure if this is agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. I will take it that it is agreeing with me and is why I think you have to call this. If you call and fold due to UTG popping, poor flop texture, or whatever we have lost a measly 160 out of our 1500 stack. I don't see that as severly handicapping your ability to win the tourney. Let's be honest in the small stakes tourney there are plenty of players that are making these moves with far lesser hands than QQ and we may be best.

Pompey- I do get that it is more about situations than the actual cards. I just don't think this is as bad a situation as it looks. There are basically two hands that we are afraid of AA/KK. Everything else we can read based on the flop. If you know the players that are making these moves there may be more of a reason to fold (or call I suppose). If this is the WSOP with huge deep stacks for 10,000 than I agree with the fold. As is I think you have to be willing to take some chances and thus I would call.
firstly, 160 chips is important to us.
second, huge deep stacks would be a reason not to fold... but i'm not gonna start explaining.

Last edited by pompeypoker; 10-22-2009 at 11:09 PM.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 11:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pompeypoker
firstly, 160 chips is important to us.
second, huge deep stacks would be a reason not to fold... but i'm not gonna bother explaining.
First of I am not trying to argue with you or implying I am an all knowing genius. I have been playing poker for a while but just started playing online and adjusting to the speed of things. I appreciate your input and love insight that improves my game.

with that being said would you mind explaining a bit more. From my perspective if you have short stacks or fast blinds (15 min is fast compared to most live tourneys) than you have to be willing to take a few more chances than you might with a deep stack. I get that a deep stack can absorb the blow a bit more and I personally would be calling in both situations (short and deep) and I guess if that is a flaw I need more than what has been laid out to understand it.
 9 mans Quote
10-22-2009 , 11:14 PM
Deep stacked gives you better implied odds. You are also in position giving you a postflop advantage, better utilized deep stacked.

Here deep stacked you could profitably call with any pair to just try and hit a set.
 9 mans Quote
10-23-2009 , 09:13 AM
That makes sense.
 9 mans Quote

      
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