So, we check/raise for information?

Playing the smallest overpair on such a board oop w/o the initiative will be almost impossible, so just check/fold. Yeah, you will fold the best hand sometimes, but your relative handstrength will be so awful on the river and there will be almost no boards where you can c/c another bet.

Could be flawed thinking, but there are more unpaired then paired combo's in his preflop range, thus he misses this flop more then he hits it. If i haven't got any stats i tend to use betsizing in these spots. If he fires small i tend to call and if he fires big i fold.

So basicaly i try to play a small pot.

well, i guess this will depend on villain, and can be true given he is an unknown, if he was a good player we could narrow his range to 88+, AQ+ (or 99+, AK+ depending on how tight he is)

88/AA = 42 combinations
AQ/AK = 32 combinations

but, given that he's an unknown, maybe this is a worthless discussion

88/AQ can't be right here IMO. I would put him on AK AQ AJ and maybe ATs and 99+ and KQs.
He is just raising a limper.

There's no reason you can't call two small bets on many boards and no reason you cannot valuebet the river sometimes. I think checkfolding is the worst option here because wtf, you have an overpair against a player whose range is weighted to unpaired cards. Just giving up the best hand because you didn't hit a set can't be right at the odds you are often going to be given.

And I do think that now the games have toughened some, giving up value in marginal spots has to be considered at least less standard.

+1

I might be way off but I can't stop wondering since when c/c, b/c, c/r or vbetting w/ the weakest possible overpair OOP vs PF isoraiser (though unknown) become a valid options in early levels in SNG

+1 !

What happened to this forum? There used to be mostly all good players on here. I can't stand to even read threads nemore without my head hurting.

Please see second par of my post. Everyone's solid now, bro

I am in the b/f camp as I think we can often take it down here and can easily fold to a flop raise. Very villain dependent, and unfortunately villains is a complete unknown here. c/f is fine too.

I don't like check-call as just as so many turn cards are scary. c/r seems way too aggressive here imo.

Very interesting to seem so many good players take different routes here (and say "wtf" about other lines).

yeah man I hear ya! lately it's just full of people who contribute nothing.

I'd B/F or C/R.

I'm leaning towards betting- it will often take the pot down right there. If villain calls, I'd be prepared to fire another barrel on the turn if anything other than an A falls. If he raises your flop bet, then fold.

I think c-raise is ok too, it will also take the pot down often, just that if you do get called, the pot will be bigger on the turn, and you'll have a tougher decision whether to bet again or not.

I just openfold pre usually and this seems like a c/f or c/c c/f.

You guys realise that b/f or c/r are infobets/raises right? And that any turn/river will very hard to play against fish ánd regs.

we hit an overpair! we did fit! or did we? at least that is clearly the OP's question, so spouting poker platitudes as a reason to do something really doesn't help us to understand the game, this situation, and situations like this that may come up better
can you explain more? is a random's range for raising over a limper and betting a flop really that strong?
can you explain why? I'm assuming you normally have good reasons for plays you make, and would like to hear them about this spot.
we aren't playing a reg, we're playing vs a random who's never been in one of the thousands of games NJD has played.
regs ranges are tilted to overpairs here, but I don't see random fish having ranges filled with JJ+ in this spot.
you say this like you heard betting or raising for information was bad somwhere, and if you spot a raise that looks like that, zomg regurgitate inforaises are bad ez game post winner! bet/folding is a valuebet, pure and simple. you know how I know? because we aren't trying to get better hands to fold, and there are plenty of worse hands in villians range.


My thoughts on the hand: intitally i think we should check/call. We have 45% or so equity vs 99+ AJs+ AQo+ on this board, and will be getting at least 2:1 (and that's if he pots, most likely we will be getting even better odds). A lot of villians will cbet once with missed overs, and then check back the turn when they miss, so our reverse implied odds aren't as terrible as it would originally seem. random fish probably aren't aggro enough to double barrel bluff very often. though, the general passiveness of random fish is a decent argument for his preflop raising range being tight enough that our equity vs it plummets to make this a check/fold. however, most fish i know see some pretty cards and raise, then won't get super crazy with bluffing multiple streets. then again, taking some of the missed overcard combos out because mrfish is aggro enough to cbet them could tip this to a check/fold instead of check/call.

Also, I don't like preflop in this hand. I don't think we have the implied odds needed to call a raise, and would prefer raising or folding to open limping. VS regs, even though their ranges are strong, we aren't getting auto getting stacks in every time we hit a set. VS randoms their ranges are weak enough that we won't be getting stacks as often because they will have nothing a decent percentage of the time when we hit.

[] constructive post

Sry for being so short I just really don't think this is actually a tough spot.

What do you think an unknow will do with A9s at t20 with a limper in the pot? With 66? With QJs? Do you think he will raise them?

In my games randoms love to limp, overlimp and flat hands like these, they don't isoraise them. Maybe some guys here play at softer SNGs, I don't know.

So I would put even an unknown on a tight range, and yes I do think that his range consist mainly from overpairs and AJ+, KQ type hands (in 90% cases combined). Which means you are either drawing to 2 outs, or are quite a huge favourite, but still OOP and with 2 more cards to come.

Since this is a SNG and spewing 250 or so chips now is not a good idea, I think that cutting loses and c/f sounds like a great option. Building a pot without any idea where we stand and without any chance to get some value on future streets sounds pretty spewy to me. C/r is a pure bluff here, and if the idea is to c/f future streets if it doesn't work, then well I think it needs to works much more often then it actually does. If you plan to c/c then be aware that roughly 28 of 47 turn cards will be overcards (16 of them pretty scary) and playing a guessing game is just not my style.

what castle said, i dont know how this got to such a long thread its the most standard c/f ever

fwiw i would not be limp calling OOP to set mine. the key here is OOP as well, it should be obvious why and i actually think its a leak of most regs.

Obv is not the most standard c/f, you have very good players and coaches advocating otherwise. if very difficult to know whats the best play, because villain is a total unknown, we dont know his range for raising pre, and we dont know how he'll react to our action. will he float our donkbet with AK/AQ? will he fold 88? is he stacking off with his whole range?

i'm sicking with c/f as maybe its not the best but the easiest way to play this hand (esp when mass multitabling)

1) we are oop
2) there is a pre-flop raise (presents a big hand)
3) c/c or c/r ? well ...cca 60% that the turn brings an overcard and now what ? Are we still rdy to fire 2nd barrel ? Nah, or if we check do you believe that most of oops will just check behind you ? No...
4) blinds are too low / not many chips in the pot to fight for and risk another by trying to outplay a random player which does strange things. We have a lot of better +EV spots in future hands.
5) another trouble is that the turn brings x of heart.

really, all the players i know to be good say c/f in this thread, with maybe one exception (juan) IDK enough about the other players.

but obv it is th emost standard c/f ever there really isnt any other way to play the hand profitably OOP

edit: what roy said fwiw as well

Any kind of tendencies from first few hands are helpful here. Villain is missing 60 chips. Where did they go?!?! Did hero take them from him? What is your image if you remember?

C/f and b/f both seem pretty viable to me. If we b/f, I think we should bet a fair number of turn cards since our equity will go up in the pot a fair amount. I am leaning a little more towards c/f since iso-er is on the HJ, but b/f looks much better if he is on btn/co. All choices are pretty thin, but I don't really like folding pre much vs an active rando.

I think you're being a bit narrow minded and dis-respectful here mate. If this was "obv the most standard c/f ever" then I'd like to think that you would appreciate that I am experienced enough to not have needed to start this thread.

The amount of discussion is testament that it isn't "the most standard c/f ever", and there are certainly good players ITT that aren't just advocating a standard c/f.

It's never a good thing to stifle debate imo. I still think the jury is at least partly out on this one.

I do tend to err towards a c/f being more correct, but I think it's great to critically analyse alternative options, which a few very good players have done ITT.

FWIW I bet/folded.

sure maybe i over exagerated

It's cool, IDK about you too FWIW