Hey guys, I played this hand recently in a $11 PKO. At the time of this hand I was about 15th in chips with 31 players remaining. Top 35 are paid out. Also in this tournament the minimum/starting bounty amount to be won is $2.50.

A 13BB stack jams in early position. They have a $9 bounty which is above average at this point. Chip leader with 100BB then calls the 13BB jam. He is currently leading in bounties collected, so this seems to fit his play. I have a stack of 38BB and have 77. I wasn't sure what to do here. I jammed my stack to try to isolate the all in player. My jam got called and I busted.

One thing I did not take into consideration was that my bounty was above average at $9 at the time of this move, which incentived the chip leader to try and win my bounty as well.

Ideally, I was hoping him calling the initial 13BB all in meant he had a marginal hand, and would fold off an extra 25BB, but maybe that just isn't big enough. It does seem quite risky for him to be putting in almost 40% of his stack with AJ, but it does give him a chance to win two bounties.

I guess I can get aggressive and have an attacking mindset in these games, but I'm not sure about this play. Is it a big mistake, small mistake or just the correct play that went wrong? Should I have maybe called the 13BB raise just to see the flop? Then again, putting in 13 out of 37BB is quite alot just to speculate on the flop.

Should I have just folded here, because my bounty would have incentivized the big stack to try to bust me? Is there a certain hand range I should have in mind for this situation?

Thanks in advance for the help guys.

PokerStars - 700/1400 Ante 175 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 40.99 BB
SB: 16.24 BB
Hero (BB): 37.97 BB
UTG: 5.38 BB
UTG+1: 52.81 BB
MP: 12.92 BB
MP+1: 59.01 BB
CO: 106.28 BB

8 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has 7 7

fold, fold, MP raises to 12.8 BB and is all-in, fold, CO calls 12.8 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 37.85 BB and is all-in, CO calls 25.05 BB

Flop: (90 BB, 3 players) T 3 2

Turn: (90 BB, 3 players) K

River: (90 BB, 3 players) Q

Hero shows 7 7 (One Pair, Sevens)

Main Pot [39.9 BB]: (Pre 17%, Flop 8%, Turn 2%)
Side Pot#1 [50.1 BB]: (Pre 53%, Flop 68%, Turn 60%)

CO shows J A (Straight, Ace High)

Main Pot [39.9 BB]: (Pre 39%, Flop 31%, Turn 40%)
Side Pot#1 [50.1 BB]: (Pre 47%, Flop 32%, Turn 40%)

MP shows 8 8 (One Pair, Eights)

Main Pot [39.9 BB]: (Pre 44%, Flop 61%, Turn 57%)

CO wins 90 BB

I'd say their flatting range is actually stronger than the iso-shove range.

Another situation w 77 again trying to isolate. This time, its a $16.50 PKO game, I'm 15th in chips with 95 players left and 26 places are paid. Two short stacks of 13 and 14BBs go all in and I rejam. LAG chip leader calls off and busts me. The short stacks and myself all have the minimum bounty of $3.75.

What do you guys think of this play? It feels different from the earlier one in that the LAG chip leader is behind me and yet to act. Also with 77, I needed to beat two hands all in, instead of one, which is a bit less likely vs heads up. I'm not sure: small mistake, big mistake or not a mistake. I can't tell at this point, and it tilted me a bit.

PokerStars - 200/400 Ante 50 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 32.57 BB
Hero (SB): 63.37 BB
BB: 99.18 BB
UTG: 10.19 BB
UTG+1: 98.06 BB
MP: 13.13 BB
MP+1: 14.06 BB
MP+2: 24.87 BB
CO: 37.52 BB

9 players post ante of 0.13 BB, Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.62 BB) Hero has 7 7

fold, fold, MP raises to 13.01 BB and is all-in, MP+1 raises to 13.93 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 63.24 BB and is all-in, BB calls 62.24 BB

Flop: (154.56 BB, 4 players) 9 Q 9

Turn: (154.56 BB, 4 players) 5

River: (154.56 BB, 4 players) Q

Hero shows 7 7 (Two Pair, Queens and Nines)

Main Pot [53.16 BB]: (Pre 39%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
Side Pot#1 [2.77 BB]: (Pre 50%, Flop 57%, Turn 78%)
Side Pot#2 [98.62 BB]: (Pre 65%, Flop 68%, Turn 85%)

BB shows A K (Two Pair, Queens and Nines)

Main Pot [53.16 BB]: (Pre 25%, Flop 14%, Turn 5%)
Side Pot#1 [2.77 BB]: (Pre 29%, Flop 25%, Turn 13%)
Side Pot#2 [98.62 BB]: (Pre 35%, Flop 32%, Turn 15%)

MP+1 shows A T (Two Pair, Queens and Nines)

Main Pot [53.16 BB]: (Pre 16%, Flop 4%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot#1 [2.77 BB]: (Pre 21%, Flop 18%, Turn 10%)

MP shows K Q (Full House, Queens full of Nines)

Main Pot [53.16 BB]: (Pre 20%, Flop 74%, Turn 90%)

BB wins 100.01 BB
MP wins 53.16 BB
MP+1 wins 1.39 BB

Remember it's the ratio of size of starting bounties to starting stacks a player has that determines how much wider you can get in against them.

Haven't decided on the first hand. Second hand I might just fold the 77 because I'm presuming you're a ways into the tournament, which means if they still only have the original bounty that there's very little Bounty Factor discount. And I wouldn't think MP1 would be getting it in too wide considering they'll be left with almost nothing if they don't win the hand, and even though it's one of the only bounties they can win at the table, it's still a pretty small one.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm right, because MP1's call seems a little wider here than it should be, and a lot of people just see "bounty" and don't factor how big the bounty is relative to the chips they're putting at risk. But if they're playing correctly I think the second hand is a fold.

Hi nath, I'm not quite grasping what this statement means. I recently did some study on bounty tournaments last week to try to get an understanding of the value of bounties. I'll write out below what I've learned and understand, and please let me know if it is correct or if I'm missing something.

To give an example of the value of bounties, I'll use the Poker Stars $3.30 PKO tournaments. Half goes into the regular prize pool, with the other half goes to the bounty prize pool. $1.50 gets you 3,000 starting chips. The other $1.50 in the bounty pool is split with $0.75 going to the player who collects the bounty, and the other $0.75 increasing that players bounty.

Therefore, when deciding to make all in calls, I value every $0.75 increment of a bounty at 1,500 chips.

I also learned that collecting bounties becomes less important as you get closer to the final table, because at that point, the pay bumps will likely be more of a financial consideration compared to bounties. Where bounties are more of a priority early on, as ICM is less of a decision factor.

I've been recently studying PKO mathematics.

First of all, this is not correct. $0,75 is 25% of the buy-in, hence it's worth 25% of the starting chips, which is 750.

You can go ahead and play the tournament keeping in mind that, roughly, $1 = 1000 dead money chips in the pot.
It is a good rule of thumb, and it's what most players do I guess.

But if you are interested in the math, it's actually a bit more complex than that.
750 chips = $0,75 not because it's 25% of the starting stack.
It's because it's a 0,25% share of the pricepool you "deserve" (if there are 100 players).

When the tourney starts, it makes no difference :
Prizepool = 100 players *$3 = $300.
Total chips = 100 players*3000 chips = 300.000 total chips
$0,75/$300 = 0,0025 (the share of the prizepool)
750 / 300.000 = 0,0025 (the share of the chips pool)

But it actually makes a difference in the middle and late game.
The total chips doesn't change, while the total prize pool decreases (some of it has been cashed out already).
So at some point, $1 is more like 1200 or 1300 chips.

So it slightly compensates this :

Most of the time it is true, the virtual dead money of the bounty is small, and you can play close to cEV.
But still, in a close all-in spot late game, if there is a $10 bounty to win, it's probably closer to 15.000 chips dead money than 10.000.

Then, at the final table, there is again another new thing to consider
you have now a significant probability of finishing first (let's say 15%-20% if you are at the final table and you cover a few other players).
So you should start thinking of building your own bounty, which you don't cash out immediately, but you have now 15% chance to win it.

I still don't have as thorough a grasp on the mathematical details as I would like, but Dara O'Kearney's PKO Poker Strategy suggests, in short, that in deciding what hands to get it in with against a stack you cover, you can measure the discount in equity you can take vs. what you would need to get it in in a standard tournament, based on the ratio of how many starting bounties you can win vs. how many starting stacks the player you're getting in with has.

IIRC (and because I don't just want to reproduce a bunch of stuff from someone else's book), at the basic ratio of 1-- at the very start of the tournament, when everyone has one starting stack and one starting bounty; in your $3.30 example that would be $0.75 and 3000 chips-- the discount is a little more than 5%. The higher the ratio of bounties to stacks is, whether that's because they've accumulated a lot of bounties or gotten short early, the more of a discount you can take; the lower the ratio is, the smaller the discount you can take.

The reason I suggested folding 77 in the second hand is that you mentioned both players only have one starting bounty, and I presumed from your description that we were deep enough in the tournament that they had significantly more than one starting stack. Therefore the discount would be minimal, and vs. a 13BB MP shove and LJ call, I would think 77 is probably not a profitable call.

Of course, on the other hand, the bounties being in play means you can play some spots wider because the other players will be getting in wider to try to get those bounties. And this may be more true, as I said, if you don't think the other players really consider the size of the bounty and will just get in fairly wide to get any bounty. No two bounty spots are really the same in that regard, so a lot of times even if you have the fundamentals down as far as ranges and equity needed for the bounties, you're still going to have to rely on your own experience and judgment in the actual moment.

Ok thanks for clarifying and explaining that Justo. I just looked over some of my study notes, and ya I did see that the value of the starting bounty is worth 25% of your starting stack. It was in this BenCB YouTube video at around 30 mins, where it mentions that 25% value, and how it increases gradually, but then increases significantly more near final table as this increases the chance of you winning your own bounty as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEMhgtUs_9w&t=14s

Thanks for your reply Nath. I wasn't paying attention to that ratio of value amount vs the starting stack ratio, but I'll try to be more attentive going forward. It makes sense how you would attack someone more with a bigger bounty and shorter stack vs small bounty/bigger stack. I'll look into Dara's content on the subject as well. I remember listening to his ideas on satellite tournaments as he was specializing at those before and he had some really helpful ideas.