$109 main, crappy river spot in 3bet pot - MTT Poker Strategy

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$109 main, crappy river spot in 3bet pot

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05-18-2014 , 09:31 PM

user12345

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,737

Villain is scandi reg, very active.
Was running over the table, opening widish UTG [T9s once].

I was moved to the table several orbits ago, was playing generally snug, more active in late positions, 3betted few times in late pos.

No special history with villain.
His fold to 3bet - 60%, wtsd - 36%, won at sd - 71%. High postflop AF.

SB is a good reg.

Got quite a crappy runout, wug?

PokerStars - $100+$9|300/600 Ante 70 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 13,680
SB: 18,413 (VPIP: 14.65, PFR: 10.16, 3Bet Preflop: 4.52, Hands: 795)
Hero (BB): 39,386
UTG: 32,491
UTG+1: 12,085
UTG+2: 75,432 (VPIP: 33.17, PFR: 28.52, 3Bet Preflop: 7.00, Hands: 162)
MP: 69,275
MP+1: 23,756
CO: 10,730

9 players post ante of 70, SB posts SB 300, Hero posts BB 600

Pre Flop: (pot: 1,530) Hero has T

fold, fold, UTG+2 raises to 1,200, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 900, Hero raises to 4,255, UTG+2 calls 3,055, fold

Flop: (10,340, 2 players) K

Hero bets 3,850, UTG+2 calls 3,850

Turn: (17,930, 2 players) T

Hero bets 7,800, UTG+2 calls 7,800

River: (33,530, 2 players) 9

[23k eff]
Hero....

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05-19-2014 , 03:57 AM

Alexo

old hand

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 1,245

I know it's probably super nitty, but perhaps we should c/f? I don't see V betting worse for value here nor turning a hand with decent showdown value like KQ or QT into a bluff. The only thing he'd bet on the river that we beat is a busted f/d that doesn't include a jack.. it's probably the worst possible river card but I don't think we can do anything about it.

Besides that, do you think it's a bad idea to flat pre? I wouldn't 3bet a UTG+2 raise with TT there that often

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05-19-2014 , 07:56 AM

oldsilver

MTTLivePro

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 5,955

pre idk.
flop ok.
turn ok.
riv c/c

not sure i want to stack off here. b/? is ugly as there's a lot more Jx in his range than yours. however, he'll know that and will either check worse behind for nice pot or stab with no sdv which you can call off.

think you played the whole pot too big tho.

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05-19-2014 , 10:21 AM

user12345

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,737

C/f is legit option

Would you c/c some Jx Silver too?

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05-19-2014 , 10:36 AM

dereds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

I don't understand the turn bet

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05-19-2014 , 10:41 AM

ibimon

adept

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 998

I don't like that flop c-bet with that sizing imo in a 3bet pot, just something wrong with it and looks odd.Maybe because I know our hand, and would have sized AA/AK/KK/QQ different,or vs agro reg would have call station mode c/call to river and let him bluff out.
OTR you say 23k effective, this means OTT you have 1.7 SPR, so overjam considering that now OTF you have let JJ into his range to the turn+FD.

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05-19-2014 , 10:48 AM

user12345

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by dereds

I don't understand the turn bet

How would you size it?

Ibimon last sentence is a problem.

Quote

05-19-2014 , 11:04 AM

ibimon

adept

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 998

don't like turn bet ether as someone said above, this is why I would jam.
This eliminates decisions on rivers like this.
Also extracts max value from AK and busted draws when called.
So still don't see a problem :/
There's enough combos in his range to valubet/protect against to outweigh AJ OTT.

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05-19-2014 , 11:10 AM

Aon1234

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 530

Preflop I think call is better (don't like our options if he RR's back).
Flop is good: I think we should 3 brl here a lot.
OTT bet is fine, cause he checks behind most of the time.
River is close vs this specific op. He probably likes to turn stuff into a bluff and also we almost never have straight, but he doesn't have many hands to turn here. I'd lean towards close c/c vs this op. Against avg reg we have to c/f.

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05-19-2014 , 11:31 AM

#10

user12345

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibimon

Ok, I just haven't understood what you meant.
Yes we can construct ranges in different ways.

Legit reply Aon, Ty.

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05-19-2014 , 01:06 PM

#11

dereds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

I think the part of his range that calls pre flop and turn calls a bigger bet on the turn and you should be getting value, also what jacks has he in his range given the blockers in your hand and on the board.

OTR I'm not sure

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05-19-2014 , 03:31 PM

#12

tboneparte

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,378

How wide do you think villain is peeling pre? QJs/KJs?

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05-19-2014 , 04:13 PM

#13

user12345

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by tboneparte

How wide do you think villain is peeling pre? QJs/KJs?

I think yes most suited broadways, unsure on QTs but that`s w/e + occasionally smth ridiculously I guess.

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05-19-2014 , 06:41 PM

#14

tboneparte

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,378

Villain can have 6 combos of QJs/KJs, AdJd, and a couple combos of JJ/AdJx/Jd9d- 9-10 combos in total at minimum usually. As for his bluff range we need it to be ~30% of his shoving range, there are only 3 or so combos of KQ, 1 of KTs that he could and prob 2-3 of AK/AQ (maybe 1 or 2 random wtf hands too I guess). We need villain to bluff at least 4 here I'd say and is real close to c/c vs the more aggro regs and a c/f vs std ones.

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05-19-2014 , 06:48 PM

#15

zanardi1

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,589

Im the only one who think flop and turn are way to small??? I think i´ll size my whle range closer to 6k on this texture and proceed from there.
Besides that I like pre, flop and turn and c/decide river evaluating upon sizing and timing.

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05-19-2014 , 07:04 PM

#16

user12345

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by zanardi1

I think the idea is villain shouldn`t really fold any Qx+ to a single bet no matter if we size 5k or 3k, but can fold worse PP.
And if we size flop bigger we`ll have PSB ott and I`m not sure it will make spot easier.

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05-21-2014 , 09:30 AM

#17

gregz41

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,609

I think flop and river are probably check/folds. No better hand is folding to one bet so I really can't see the point of a flop bet. I think you are underestimating what happens to his range when he calls your flop bet pre flop, he has called with the possbilty of being sandwiched between you and the BTN, this strengthens his range. The only case I could make for betting the flop is that you have the Td which means you can sometimes freeroll to showdown if you turn a diamond vs 1 pair hands.

As played, yeah x/f river, villain is always checking back sdv, and due to the sandwich effect pre, I'm not sure how he'll have a lot of missed flushes like 98dd.

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05-21-2014 , 11:36 PM

#18

MCK86

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibimon

Jam turn.

Quote

05-22-2014 , 04:43 AM

#19

MasterJ009

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,386

I do prefer check/folding flop.
Like flop only if we plan on 3barrel-getting it in and taking a high variance line.
Dislike turn aswell. As played, river is prob a c/f or maybe a check/sighcall.

Quote

05-22-2014 , 03:20 PM

#20

user12345

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,737

well I think it was fine ev wise, but probably unnecessary (not the best spot) vs small stakes regs.

PokerStars - $100+$9|300/600 Ante 70 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 13,680
SB: 18,413 (VPIP: 14.65, PFR: 10.16, 3Bet Preflop: 4.52, Hands: 795)
BB: 39,386 (VPIP: 11.54, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 52)
UTG: 32,491
UTG+1: 12,085
Hero (UTG+2): 75,432
MP: 69,275
MP+1: 23,756
CO: 10,730

9 players post ante of 70, SB posts SB 300, BB posts BB 600

Pre Flop: (pot: 1,530) Hero has Q

fold, fold, Hero raises to 1,200, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 900, BB raises to 4,200, Hero calls 3,000, fold

Flop: (10,230, 2 players) K

BB bets 3,850, Hero calls 3,850

Turn: (17,930, 2 players) T

BB bets 7,800, Hero calls 7,800

River: (33,530, 2 players) 9

BB checks, Hero bets 59,512 and is all-in, BB calls 23,466 and is all-in

Hero shows Q

(One Pair, Queens) (Pre 46%, Flop 85%, Turn 9%)
BB shows T

(Three of a Kind, Tens) (Pre 54%, Flop 15%, Turn 91%)

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05-22-2014 , 04:21 PM

#21

johall111

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 4,496

im grunching but i like to flat pre and intend to go to showdown often vs scandi reg. as played on this board i prefer 4200-4500 sizing w my whole range. i really like turn as played. and i shove river but i know thats prob debatable. i just think that chk caps us in a spot vs a good villain who has to have showdown value, i think we just get **** on by villain chkin a good portion of his value that gets in vs shove and using AQ ATs as great bluffs

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05-22-2014 , 04:30 PM

#22

jonrubs

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,999

Ambitious turn call with AQ

Quote

05-22-2014 , 04:30 PM

#23

johall111

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 4,496

villain being a small stakes reg and playing tight,52 hands lol etc, *may* turn me away from river shove since people who are not playing many hands seem to be extra sticky when they do play a pot. but prob not becus its such a perfect hand to use in bluff range. but maybe cus unexploitable to a ssreg? lol fun game. oh yeah obv fold turn

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05-22-2014 , 05:02 PM

#24

reziduer

banned

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 646

Easy bet on the river imo.

Quote

05-22-2014 , 05:04 PM

#25

reziduer

banned

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 646

User12345 can U explain ur 3bet sizing plz. Thank you.

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