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9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot 9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot

03-16-2014 , 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkratitsbest
Pre is def fine. I have a 4b/f range w 35bbs all day. Gotta 4b AKs to balance. U don get flatted that often...
If they aren't going to flat much, 4b/call is best both for value to induce. It balances, but I am not sure if that is so important. I think you have plenty of room to 4b/f, so you should get more action with a 4b/c than a shove.

If you are expecting a lot of flats, then like I say I think it is OK to 4b normally with big pairs and bluffs and shove some big ace mid pp hands. I think in a lot of $20 MTTs pushing would be better.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-16-2014 , 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartland
4-bet jam pre.
toweliestar gives u 2 thumbs down
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-16-2014 , 01:36 PM
I think OP's estimate of villan's range is excessively weighted towards Qs and pps. I think we are at worst 40% against his range on this flop with 2 backdoor draws.

Can we consider pushing the turn? Combining sometimes being ahead, sometimes getting a better hand to fold, and sometimes drawing out maybe it is profitable. The 3-flush could be scary to him. Plus there is only like 2/3 pot left.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-17-2014 , 03:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbulenc3
I don't think it's standard. We have plenty room to 4b/f
You're happy to lay him such a good price to flat IP? If we could go bigger and still be perceived to fold then I would be in agreement but with these stacks shoving our whole continuing range seems natural to me.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-17-2014 , 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AimHigher
You're happy to lay him such a good price to flat IP? If we could go bigger and still be perceived to fold then I would be in agreement but with these stacks shoving our whole continuing range seems natural to me.
So maybe push AK/TT and such and 4-bet this size with QQ+ and bluffs.

If you get flat called with AK, use being OOP to usually to usually bet flop, push turn on flops you miss.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-17-2014 , 02:02 PM
I don't think anyone should be saying pre is fine. Ya you don't have to yik but please don't go 5.2k. This is a spot I'm going 6777/call or just ripping depending on villain, either is prob fine, as played I probably do the same thing you did post.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-17-2014 , 06:40 PM
What an awful 4bet. You're making it correct for him to call with any two cards and he has position. WTF?

I hope he had like 66 and played the way he did because he "put you on AK."
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03-18-2014 , 01:08 AM
Yeh, I think this is AK made difficult. If you 4-bet larger, you don't get flat called much, and if you are it is easy to just gii if you miss. I agree this is asking for trouble here.

I guess I have a different point of view and don't understand why we have to play our whole range the same. I don't think it would be terrible if you raised this size with big pairs or some bluffs. It would be hard for anyone to figure out or exploit that pattern.
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03-18-2014 , 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by betgo
Yeh, I think this is AK made difficult. If you 4-bet larger, you don't get flat called much, and if you are it is easy to just gii if you miss. I agree this is asking for trouble here.

I guess I have a different point of view and don't understand why we have to play our whole range the same. I don't think it would be terrible if you raised this size with big pairs or some bluffs. It would be hard for anyone to figure out or exploit that pattern.
What sort of hands were you thinking of 4betting nominally with as bluffs? Like A2s-A5s or something? Then jamming maybe like ATs+, KQs, AQo+, 88-JJ ??

Last edited by AimHigher; 03-18-2014 at 04:04 PM.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-18-2014 , 04:27 PM
Checking the flop is an option, the board is very wet with draws and villian has shown strength. No reason to go nuts with AK if it didn't connect with the board. Unless u have areas otherwise, maybe folding on the flop is the best way to save your stack, if u can't do that, see all 5 cards and shove.

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9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-18-2014 , 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AimHigher
What sort of hands were you thinking of 4betting nominally with as bluffs? Like A2s-A5s or something? Then jamming maybe like ATs+, KQs, AQo+, 88-JJ ??
I would bluff mainly based on reads not hand. Presumably he opened with an OK hand, so I wouldn't be that worried about blockers or playability or whatever.

Your shoving range is about right, but it is fine to 4-bet larger/call with those hands. I just think it is a mistake to 4-bet small with a mid pp or big ace and get in a crappy spot like this postflop. I might flat the 3-bet with the bottom of your shoving range.
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03-19-2014 , 02:37 AM
Nh ffs u guys all wanna jam cuz it makes the hand easier to play and we wont know what to do if we miss..
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-19-2014 , 09:02 AM
yes its weird people sound like its worst thing which can happen when we villains flats 4ball with us holding AKs.

still sizing should be bigger imo.
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03-19-2014 , 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatsoFat6969
Nh ffs u guys all wanna jam cuz it makes the hand easier to play and we wont know what to do if we miss..
I don't mind 4betting instead of jamming, but making it such a small raise where it's "Theory of Poker" correct for him to call with any two is just terrible IMO, and you're just asking for trouble. It's like bluffing when someone is all in, yes, it can be right and it can work sometimes, but usually, it's terrible, and it really shouldn't be attempted unless you're a sick hand reader. The stacks are just too short to be trying to outplay someone out of position postflop.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-20-2014 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexM
What an awful 4bet. You're making it correct for him to call with any two cards and he has position. WTF?

I hope he had like 66 and played the way he did because he "put you on AK."
If he calls with any two cards my range is far ahead of him and he will have reverse implied odds. I don't think my 4bet is awful, vs a random player maybe would be better 4bet to 6,5k, but it doesn't change a lot the situation.

Position? With SPR of 1.5 is very imortant? Overrating the value of position in this spot is just awful.

"Theory of poker" includes more things than only call odds.
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03-20-2014 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexM
I don't mind 4betting instead of jamming, but making it such a small raise where it's "Theory of Poker" correct for him to call with any two is just terrible IMO, and you're just asking for trouble. It's like bluffing when someone is all in, yes, it can be right and it can work sometimes, but usually, it's terrible, and it really shouldn't be attempted unless you're a sick hand reader. The stacks are just too short to be trying to outplay someone out of position postflop.
wtf man we have ace king suited... thats a good hand.. we aren't bluffing.. we are four betting for value... we just have the best hand here we aren't "trying to outplay someone".. wtf
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03-20-2014 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatsoFat6969
wtf man we have ace king suited... thats a good hand.. we aren't bluffing.. we are four betting for value... we just have the best hand here we aren't "trying to outplay someone".. wtf
This!
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03-20-2014 , 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatsoFat6969
wtf man we have ace king suited... thats a good hand.. we aren't bluffing.. we are four betting for value... we just have the best hand here we aren't "trying to outplay someone".. wtf
+275.000
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-20-2014 , 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatsoFat6969
wtf man we have ace king suited... thats a good hand.. we aren't bluffing.. we are four betting for value... we just have the best hand here we aren't "trying to outplay someone".. wtf
AKs is a great hand, but that doesn't mean we should price him in to flat call with whatever he raised with.
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03-20-2014 , 01:02 PM
we aren't 100bbs eff or something man.. we don't care if he flats pre he's more likely to make an error without the initiative than we are..

Last edited by FatsoFat6969; 03-20-2014 at 01:03 PM. Reason: OMG WHAT DO WE DO IF WE HAVE TO SEE THREE MORE CARDS ALL IN ALL IN ALL IN
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-20-2014 , 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatsoFat6969
wtf man we have ace king suited... thats a good hand.. we aren't bluffing.. we are four betting for value... we just have the best hand here we aren't "trying to outplay someone".. wtf
I didn't say we were bluffing. I made an analogy to a situation that involves bluffing.

And giving someone proper odds to call when you have the best hand is definitely trying to outplay them.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-20-2014 , 10:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexM
I didn't say we were bluffing. I made an analogy to a situation that involves bluffing.

And giving someone proper odds to call when you have the best hand is definitely trying to outplay them.
9 AKs in 4bet pot awful spot Quote
03-20-2014 , 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexM
I didn't say we were bluffing. I made an analogy to a situation that involves bluffing.

And giving someone proper odds to call when you have the best hand is definitely trying to outplay them.
Ur analogy is about bluffing and since we arent bluffing its pointless.. And no having the best hand isnt trying to outplay someone.. Thats like saying u really outplayed that guy by value betting top 2 on the river.. Just wait for aces ur life will be easier
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03-21-2014 , 07:22 AM
Fatso knowsssss
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03-21-2014 , 01:43 PM
I dont get why everyone is berating AlexMs ideas, 4betting small is by far the worst option here, as:

- its so rare that someone would decide to 5-bet rip AJ or whatever in these stages of a tourney esp with that suspicious sizing, whereas we could get a stubborn call if we were to rip

- we are out of position and give our opponent perfect odds to call us with pretty much ANYTHING & letting him play perfectly post flop -- exploiting ourselves

- our stack size is awkward and we will have to triple barrel to gii

cant decide if 6333/c or rip is the best readless, but defo not as played
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