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11-06-2013 , 04:58 PM

Lamboro

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 123

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.5 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds 2 Ante (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

CO (t18)
Button (t478)
Hero (SB) (t478)
BB (t1,030)
UTG (t498)
MP (t498)

Hero's M: 11.38

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

, 10

3 folds, Button raises to t45, Hero raises to t125, 1 fold, Button calls t80

Flop: (t282) 4

, 6

, 4

(2 players)
Hero ?

Absolutely no idea what is the correct play in this spot.
I'm guessing I have to bet. What about the sizing?

Is the preflop 3-bet ok? Would you call 4-bet shove?

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11-07-2013 , 10:12 AM

mozzandherb

newbie

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 16

You're leaving yourself open when you re-raise without the goods and get flat called, because if you don't hit the flop you've risked a large % of your stack. Best option would be to either flat the 45 or shove pre flop depending on your opponent. You see how it's a tough decision now post flop? That's what I think at least.

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11-07-2013 , 10:18 AM

LeaksSuck

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,859

Ez shove pre against most btn.

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11-07-2013 , 11:41 AM

emitnulB

veteran

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,444

Why is this a tough spot? If you were ahead pre, you're ahead now. This is like the nut board.

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11-07-2013 , 12:34 PM

mozzandherb

newbie

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by emitnulB

Why is this a tough spot? If you were ahead pre, you're ahead now. This is like the nut board.

Not necessarily, villain could be playing low-mid pockets, or A-rag, but certainly a small C-bet would be the play to see where you stand.

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11-07-2013 , 12:55 PM

LeaksSuck

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,859

3bet small + cbet "to see where you stand" (you mean folding if he shoves?) is a blueprint for losing money.

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11-07-2013 , 02:50 PM

mozzandherb

newbie

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeaksSuck

3bet small + cbet "to see where you stand" (you mean folding if he shoves?) is a blueprint for losing money.

I did not recommend 3 betting in his situation, I was just stating that he's not necessarily still ahead. Shoving with a losing hand is also a recipe for losing money in this situation.

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11-08-2013 , 08:18 AM

LeaksSuck

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,859

If the hand you're shoving is losing, regardless if you mean it in the sense of "actually losing after all cards are dealt" or "being behind pre of the hand you got actually called by" is both irrelevant.
You're up against a r/f & r/c ranges of the very most btn that make shoving pre well +EV, while all of the "see flop - stab/cbet - fold if raised" lines are burning money.
Maybe flat/stab most flops smallish isn't that bad against some opp though, don't know, I just happily shove.

Last edited by LeaksSuck; 11-08-2013 at 08:25 AM.

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11-08-2013 , 03:26 PM

AbsoluteLoser

centurion

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 136

1) after bnt steal pot is ~20% of your stack, i like shoving here,most times he folds, when we get called our hand is playing good
2) i dont see a reason not to get in at this flop. I bet 40%/call

Sent from my LG-P350 using 2+2 Forums

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11-14-2013 , 04:36 AM

#10

chav

grinder

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 483

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeaksSuck

3bet small + cbet "to see where you stand" (you mean folding if he shoves?) is a blueprint for losing money.

Not necessarily.This is how a lot of good sLAGs play MTTs but obviously stacks are deeper there.It all depends on stack sizes IMHO.Below the 25 BB threshold shoving starts to outperform MR 3bet/cbet option.
Here i agree with you but it is right on the threshold so both options are viable totally villain dependent.

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11-14-2013 , 05:21 AM

#11

LeaksSuck

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,859

Well yeah, if we played other structures with other stack sizes we might be better off doing other things ^^

Putting in half our stack against a rnd and then fold << Fold pre << Shove pre.

btw if you draw a threshold at 25bb for considering anything like this: we're already way below that.

Thing which disturbed me is this "cbet to see where you stand". This seems like "I bet to buy the info if I'm ahead or not" (whether this works or not) which is bad reasoning, cause it essentially means betting to fold out any worse and get called by any better.

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11-15-2013 , 11:45 AM

#12

chav

grinder

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 483

We are 24 BB effective.3bet to 120 is a 1/4 of our stack.Not cbetting every flop if called and not necessaryly folding if miss just play poker.That said i probl just jam at 24BBs but i am sure its not the most optimal play.

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11-15-2013 , 01:04 PM

#13

duffer230

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 109

Shove it.

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11-15-2013 , 06:35 PM

#14

savedbygrace2200

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 112

IMO you can never three bet 3 fold with that stack u just throwing money away..we are crushing buttons range a hugee percentage of the time unless you have sum extreme nit read on villian...shoving pre is prolly optimal if ur like mass mutlitabling keeps ur decision quick nd easy but there is other profitable lines at ~25bb... thats y i dont mind the 3bet at all if u believe villian is going to r/c a 3bet wider than a shove. post i like jammin 99% or like min bet induce if villians aggro spewey

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11-15-2013 , 07:39 PM

#15

Oczkusss

adept

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 920

This is so player dependent situation. I would look at his steal % at first, then vpip/raise.
Some guys steal over 50% from the button others even could muck ATo on the button.
If you want to flat check his cbet% and aggresiveness ratio + percentage.

Against some nits like 10/9 i like to fold (+low steal %).
Against aggro and often stealing players shove is best..player dependent..
..against standard 30/20 (stealer) I like a shove but also dont see too many types of players to 3bet with these stacks. I am folding a lot too against nits.

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11-16-2013 , 07:42 AM

#16

yukyuk

centurion

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 189

can we have a profitable 3 betting range at all here?

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11-16-2013 , 06:31 PM

#17

Pokernubz

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,472

I like to 3bet to like 240, and shove any flop.
Yes it's similar to a shove pre, but I see a lot of fish calling half there stack, then folding.

Assuming we vs a random at low stakes.

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