Message board is up, working on more important stuff for the fund so I have yet to take the time to make it look good. Anyone is welcome to join and talk in the "open to the public" sections, even if it's just to follow the progress of the fund. The section of the forum only for investors is hidden to members unless permission is given. Access will be given to investors as funds are received.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Baller_Fund

chaging a 2% vig on the acutal investment pool money is ridiculous given that you have no experience finding and training up quality horses.

also, where is coaching money going to come from? from the fund investors?

and then charging like 20% of profits? is that 20% of full profits from the horses (horses, or 20% of what is split towards the investment fund?)

so if the fund picks up $5000 in profits for the investment period, are you telling me you'll get $1000 of that?

Interesting thread, mostly in that people seem interested in investing in this concept even though I suspect this one will run into all sorts of unexpected situations that will make the theoretical model not quite match up with reality.

Many have already mentioned a lot of the obvious ones (2% fee for investing (ouch) and finding quality horses), but a bunch of day to day activities will definitely make this model push it's limits including:


- Horses quitting shortly after starting
- Uneven/unreliable reporting done by horses
- Investors pulling out their funds (what if it leaves the fund lacking the resources to reload horses)


These are just a few things off the top of my head.

Regarding finding qualified horses, all I can say is that it is possible, but good luck getting 50 any time soon. I have looked at hundreds of stake applications this year and the vast majority of them are not "stakeable" at all.

Finding 50 quality players and managing them properly (they are not simply a product) while also managing the portfolio and the investors is, diplomatically put, quite a challenging undertaking.

I admit I will be curious to see how this goes, though my gut feeling is it will be stalled in finding a good stable of players (which will make investors impatient). I do not doubt the OP's motives or intentions, but I do question his expectations a bit. Still, if he pulls it off then congrats to him in advance.

As regards to reporting, I would recommend looking into this www.luckboxes.com

Its a stake tracking website that runs off Pokerstars/FTP audits and makes tracking alot easier. I have not used them myself as I don't stake tournaments or on FTP/PS, but if i did i would look into it. You see how all your stakes are doing via the back end and should make bookkeeping alot easier. Its literally just gone up so it may have a few bugs, but worth trying maybe.

I have the site owner on Skype, PM me if you want it.

excellent post.


I have been doing this for quite a while, and my stable is as big as it has ever been.


I have 35 guys atm.

It certainly does make for an interesting situation in that there is an untapped market of players who want to invest but dont have the time to do it themselves, while on the other end there are people who are very good at finding quality horses and running a stable but yet they would never open up a fund like this. The whole thing presents a quandary....

I believe for something like this to work the best you would need three or more managers. One person to coach and support the horses, one person to deal with all of the bookkeeping and paperwork, and another person to recruit perspective horses and investors. Otherwise this may end up being too much work, even at a 20% cut. This especially becomes problematic in this situation where it seems you are prepared for the administrative side of this fund but may lack expertise in coaching or recruiting.

I am still very interested in this idea but will most likely end up waiting to see if all of the "problems" can be hashed out for this to work sufficiently.

a good idea, you clearly are legit. however there's been a few mutual funds over on ptp and they've not been overly successful. They also had no initial fee and a much lower %age cut for those in charge. I don't really see how you'll be able to make the sort of returns your talking about (certainly not in the first 6 months or so anyway until a reliable stable is built up).

that said it is definately an interesting prospect. i'm still weighing up an investment.

best of luck with this either way OP, great to see someone taking some initiative.

Coaching is coming from myself and investors who have expressed interest in a more active role in their investment. It will not be purchased from outside sources for horses except for maybe very unique situations.

I am receiving 20% of gains and while technically it would be gains of the entire fund, I chop with each investor on an individual basis... but yes in theory if the fund were to make 5k in the first month i would be receiving 1k.

The 2% expense ratio is to help cover things such as ptr, sharkscope, ect.. it is also meant to deter short term investors as well as compensate me for the work and time i am putting in. I understand the concern of charging this fee without past results in running a large fund, thus I have dropped this fee for the first investment period.

I am offering a service and the ability for investors to pool money and lower variance, If you feel that the fees associated with my fund are to high, than you are more than welcome to do the work yourself by starting and maintaining a stable on your own. Paying 20% of gains to a manager that will be looking out for your money full time allowing you to not deal with the work, headaches, ect... of running a stable is a great deal imo.


Thanks for taking the time to post, you raise some very good concerns about the model I have developed.

Yes I understand that building a large stable of upwards of 50 players is no easy task. I have personally spoke with several fund managers including a few that have stables around this size. While 50 is my eventual goal with 100k roll and I believe obtainable. The starting roll of the fund will be much smaller and with the small amount of bap buying and money being kept liquid for investor transactions and unexpected variance, my realistic goal for horses will be 20-30 by the end of the first period. Keep in mind that the stakes of each horse will be very small on what is looking to be a 30k-50k starting amount. At these levels expected roi per player is larger and there is simply more people capable of beating these limits. If I were looking for winning high stakes sng players yes a stable of 30+ would be very difficult. Most of my initial prospects will be in the 2/180 3/45 5/don range. What levels were you looking over apps at?

In terms of the reporting at months end I will be using audits to determine where they stand. Overall I will be keeping very low numbers of buyins in horses accounts to begin with. I do not feel there will be much of issue with unreliable data.

Since no single investor will hold a large overall percentage(at least not at the moment) the only time this will be an issue would be in the event of a mass exodus of investors leaving the fund. At the point the number of horses would have to be cut down/ reduced in limits anyways so funds would be recalled from them. It is a very unlikely scenario IMO.





hmmm looks interesting. Seems like alot of work went into creating it, I will look it over more closely in the next day or two and maybe talk with them. Anything to make life eaiser is always worth looking into lol.


Yes down the road i invision this to be much more than 1 person can handle as the fund grows. For now 50k and a stable of 30+ horses is managable by one person, but twice that size and extra help would have to be hired to help with the day to day work loads.

The ptp mutual funds were mostly just guys buying bap packages. They were set up to be extremely high variance operations and many were not successful for that reason. Most of the managers were not approaching it as being a true stable, but more of a buying lottery tickets outfit. They were just kind of part time operators for the most part.

I know that other funds are making similar margins and several of these guys are playing full time in addition to running their stables. yes growth will be slow at first, this is not something to invest in if you want to double your money overnight. However I believe that in 6 months that can happen and I expect nothing less.

Thanks for the good luck wishes... my goals are long term and im trying to build both a brand and a business. I won't rest until they stop calling it "baxxed" and start calling it "balled"

Are you charging 2% per annum for the management fee? or are you taking 2% per month from the investment pool before profits? cause that would equal to over 24% effective management fee which I don't have to say is ridiculous.

if it's the latter, that means if i'm part of a 100,000 fund, and assuming a 2% management charge each month, we'll be paying you like $24,000 BEFORE profits.

Again, if you can pull all of this off I will be impressed, but I am going to bring up a few things for you to consider.


You will find managing this to be way more time consuming than you realize, and the players will likely want a lot of coaching while you and the investors will soon tire of coaching guys at 10 NL, $2-5 SnG/MTTs or whatever.

As well, you plan on coaching a bunch of these guys, while also managing all their reports and all the communication with investors and help coordinate the coaching of the investors with the horses?

I highly suggest you invent cloning.





The expenses should be paid for from your cut or a small percentage of winnings should be put aside for overhead expenses like this. The upfront fee is kind of insane to be honest.





The problem is you do not have a stable yet, you have a theoretical stable. I commend you for finding a lot of investment interest, but you are selling a product that does not yet exist for you, and the reality is for those that have created a similar product there is little incentive to do what it is you plan on doing.

I kind of like some of the theoretical aspects of this all, but there is a bit of a chicken and egg issue here as I see it.






Hmm, how shall I put this - you are dreaming if you think you can create a large stable of solid, professional, full time players who playing $2 180 mans and $5 DoNs. The numbers just do not work if eating is a long term goal for your players.

You will get no shortage of applications, that I grant. The turnover of the players you sign at this level will be extreme.



I still cannot imagine you doing all of these jobs.



Again, I do admire the thought you put into this, and I have no doubt of your energy or enthusiasm, but I think you may find that selling a product to investors before you have the foundation of the actual product will create a lot of surprises for you in the future, particularly in time management and also people management.

Still, best of luck. I will be curious to see how this plays out.

could you maybe give an update ?

how high is the fund actually ?
and how many horses ?

i actually don't mind the 2% initial fee, it will stop investors hit and running the fund. its the 20% cut i think is pretty high. but in fairness it is reassuring in a way, you can see where his brains are with a high cut - he's motivated to make the fund make money, he's not just pulling off some massive scam (which, sadly, is the biggest risk of all here given the history of these thing on the interwebz).

No 2% would only be taken on initial investment. Once that money is in the fund there are no future fees taken other than the chop on profits. Profits reinvested are also not subject to this 2% as well as anyone who is willing to invest in the startup.

Update on everything soon, hashing out some details with a few people and working on some more checks and balances to insure investor confidence.

Well, i finally did it... I have read every single word i this thread... I have to admit, it was kind of like a movie... Very interesting, plot twist and the whole nine yards... 2 cents follows... (from a MTT perspective, can't speak on cash game side"

Hey man, just through all the time and effort you have put into OP and answering everyone's questions, you have to be A: Very reliable or B:going to great great measures to scam... You surely don't come off as the later....



Question 1- Your Financial Security is???

I am going to bring up a question that has NOT been asked itt, as far as I can see it.... What happens if this project of yours goes 6 months with very little to no profit?? Do you personally have enough savings to take care of your bills for lets say 6 months to a year??? Because, if you are only making $$ off of profit, and as people have mentioned, the start up of this thing is going to take time.. I would say you need a pretty good size nest egg yourself... Otherwise, investors might see the fund manager, Having to get a real job himself.. Ha..


Question 2: "Inventory" is where?

Next point... Man, it has been said before, and I am going to say it again... GOOD FREAKIN LUCK, finding a stable (10+) of Low Limit Grinders who are going to be as profitable as your projections are... There is absolutely NO WAY, you will get as many as you seek.. All of the best ones are already taken.. (see Zima's post, he has 35 horses!!!) Hundreds of Apps, are posted here every day... The "bigger players" look through these, and trust me, they are taking the ones who are showing a sign of profit.. I am not saying that a couple of guys haven't/won't fall through the cracks.. BUT, man, The level of players apps you are going to be faced with is going to really change your mind.. IMO, there is NO way this project goes successfully (making significant $$), unless you are offering Mid Stakes or higher with the low level grinders...



Question 3: Your Experience? Father Time?

My last point in this great post is simply this.. You are not at a point to quantify any of the #'s you are projecting or asking for... I can not speak on them as to be correct or not, because I myself have never done this.. Is 2% high?? No clue... Should you get 20% of profit?? No clue again.. I don't think you have the experience doing any of this, so it really is super hard for you to quantify what it is your asking for... Have you even coached a MTT player before??? Have you looked through a HH and had a coaching session?? I haven't read your qualifications in this area, or experience.. I am not saying you are good /bad or indifferent in the area.. I am just pointing out that, without experience you do not know how much TIME it will take to do so.. And as previously stated, the players you are going to taking on, are going to be far from "give them $$ and let them earn", they are going to need significant coaching/time

This point has been brought up, but you honestly just glaze over it.. (Your Optimism is great) You were an econ major, NOT an accounting major.. Do you know how much TIME it is going to take for you to track individual investors transactions, Horse transactions, and the over all quality control of the financial aspect of an operation that is suppose to be as big as you want.. I have somewhat of a small financial background myself, and I am telling you man, there is no way you will be able to do this once/if this thing ever truly gets off the ground.. Just wont happen... The End

And then you have Recruiting investors and Horses..... how many horses have you vetted? How many apps have you gone over?? Do you know how much TIME it takes to do that? Calling of references, waiting to hear back from them, looking up OPR's Scopes etc... Sitting down with potential investors, giving them your "sales pitch" preparing the data for said pitch.... Man there isn't enough TIME in the day for all of these things... And this is all assuming you get to the numbers (20-30) you speak of.. What about putting out fires? A horse rolls? A investor is unhappy? Maintaing the Website blog thingy you put up??

What about your personal life? Do you have a girlfriend/ boyfriend? (hey you never know) Like to go to the movies? Dinner? a little booty every once in while?? You will be glued to your CPU... What about vacations? days "off" ? Holidays??? Are you just going to live in your house?? This is a Overtime Job you are putting together, meaning, way way beyond full time..


The End

Bro, you have a GREAT IDEA in theory.. I commend you for the idea.. But, If i were you, I would push the start date back again.... Come up with a "team"/ proper business model, and try and get all of this in place before you just rush all of this, and it becomes a cluster, and you "Learn as you go" with 50k of investors money..


Footnote

As someone said above, You kinda did it backwards, you should have gotten the product first (horses), and then presented that to investors... Unfortunately the quality of horses you think are out there don't exist, can't just pop over to the "Horse Store" and go down the "2/180" isle and pick yourself up 10-20 "Top Shelf" horses....

Ohhh and one other thing.. You talked about BAP of players.. Have you accounted for the Mark Up that is charged?? Have you thought about how the investors are going to feel about you taking ownership of who to BAP and who not to BAP??

I have been VERY active in that side of things, buying and selling, and TRUST ME, that is a QUICK way to lose a ton of your investors $$ if you don't know what your doing, and who you are buying from...

I personally am UP from it, but not that much at all, and after a significant outlay... This is an entire beast in it self...

You really need to think about this aspect as well

Update Nov. 9th:

Things are coming together very fast and I just wanted to give a quick update as to where progress stands...

Thus far I have 23k in 100% committed funds. Currently I have nearly 20k pending and listed as likely investors that are very close to being considered in. I’m still answering questions and speaking to several of you on a regular basis and I hope to have this money committed very soon. Another 10-15k is listed as "maybe" and a few people have decided to wait a few more days before making a decision. Overall I am expecting 40k-50k at the time of the startup in 6 days.

Startup date remains set for thr 15th of November. All funds must me committed and received by this date. I will begin allowing funds to be sent as soon as the final details of a few things are worked out. Expect to be able to begin shipping sometime in the next day or two.

I have talked to several of the committed investors and concerned possible investors about coming up with an additional method of protection. Currently, the idea being considered is this: I will only be allowed a certain amount of money to be held in my accounts in cash at any given time(probably no more then 10k on either site) any additional money belonging to the fund will be held in escrow and released at the discretion of the board of trustees after completing an audit. This provides what I feel is a good system for check and balances to help protect investors money. I am still in the process of working out all of the details and I will announce the exact plan as soon as it becomes ready. In the meantime I’m open to further ideas. Also if there are any mods/super trusted 2+2 members interested in serving as an escrow please pm me.

I have put up a thread seeking horses on 2+2 and will be adding one on p2p very soon. Horses will be announced in the investors section of the forum as they are signed. thread is here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...inders-915194/

I'm getting close to a working excel spreadsheet that will serve as the tracking agent for horses and the fund. It is not overly complex but has all the nesessary things to track everything. As time goes on and things get more complex It will be updated and expanded on. I will be keeping the file backed up on a flash drive as well as sending it to board members after every update so no data can be lost by an event such as fire or a hard drive crash.

that’s it for now, I will post more info as it becomes available. Please feel free to respond with more questions/concerns.

You're getting very good, very constructive advice from many people trying to help you. Letting you know you're getting in over your head and you can't handle this yet. You seem to be stubborn on moving forward regardless. Take their advice. Nearly everyone who has posted this advice to you actually has experience in the area.

Wow... great post and first I want to say thanks for taking the time to read everything. It has been quite a ride since i made the very first post a few weeks ago. Let me try and address your main points here 1 at a time.

1. My financial security

I have money saved to support myself for what i feel is 6 months. I live a pretty low overhead life in a college apartment with 2 roomates. In the event that I do run out of money I do have some friends/family that would extend me a loan for living expenses. In the event that 6 months in the fund is showing very little or no return I guess the decision would be made at that time to dissolve the fund or transfer the responsibility over to someone else (that would be quite a process to get approval from investors). I guess I feel that stuff would have to be done on a "when i get there, if it happens" basis.

2. "Inventory"

Yes as mentioned this is not gonna be easy... after thinking about things and running projections with the bankroll available I plan to accept horses up to about the 11 dollar range for sng's less than 180 mans and 5 dollar range for mtts in the beginning. more details can be seen in the funds thread i just put up. I have talked with several of the big fund guys on 2+2 in the last few weeks. most run stables in the 15-50 players range. While I agree that its going to be a slow painful search in the beginning, and turnover rates will be high, I am confident that 20+ solid horses is doable with current horse market conditions after speaking to other managers. Like I have mentioned, worse case scenario is that I am not able to find enough horses fast enough and money sits. I can think of worse problems.

Experience/Father time

My experience in coaching is limited, you are correct in that assumption. I have experience as a player and have been profitable at most but not all of the levels/games of staking that will be offered. I have personally worked with my own small stakes horses in the past and well as have training from great players under my belt. I am trying to do my best to find players that need a minimal amount of this but i understand it is something that will need to happen. This is where I plan to utilize the power of a community of very experienced and talented investors that wish to donate some of their expertise to the fund. Its not for everyone who invests and not required, but several people have said they wouldn’t mind going through hh's and helping players on a limited basis. This will help me out a ton both in time and the fact that I realize im not a master sicko player myself.

In terms of time I know that this will be time consuming. I believe myself to be extremely organized and believe this will help in handling all the necessary tasks presented in the fund. Do I believe that by myself i can run the entire operation of a 50k fund with 30 horses? yes. Do I believe that I can do it with 100k and 50 horses? much less likely. When that time comes I will either have to take on a partner or hire help. Trust me when I say that the second things become overwhelming I will find help.

I know that I have a great idea "in theory" and I appreciate yourself and the many others who also believe this. The make or break is going to come down to the execution. Its easy to make things look great on paper, its an entirely different beast to put these plans to test in the real world. That is why this is an investment and like all investments there is an element of risk. But I truly believe this can be pulled off, I think that although this is not an entirely new idea my approach is unique however untested, and I really feel like the upside far outweighs the down. I would have loved to have 30 horses signed and ready to go before seeking out investors but that would be so hard to do given the time necessary to build the stable and then propose the investment(cant just sign a horse and tell him be ready to start playing in 30-60 days). What it all boils down to is investing in me, its giving a kid that you believe will work hard and be successful at something you would like to do on your own but don’t have the time or desire. I don’t believe it takes a genius to pull this off, just the foundation of a poker player, the advice of others who have proven to be successful, and the internal fire to come up with any idea and make it succeed.




I wanted to include bap's in order to add a little bit more of a high risk/high reward element to the portfolio. Initially thought that 1/4 of the overall roll should be reserved to this however I am now thinking that this will me much closer to less than 10%. The basic strategy will be reviewing packages and putting in the proper due dilligance and decide investing where i consider them to be a plus ev spot. Pieces bought will be very small and spread out very thin. As with the main objective of running a stable yes I expect investors to trust my decision making here as well. All purchases will be posted in my forum right away and I will be recieving input from investors as I go along. I dont claim to be a magician when evualating what to and not to do, I just will use common sense, hard work, and make decisions on behaf of investors as to what I think will be the best investments for the fund.

Yes I agree that I have received a ton of very constructive advice from many intelligent and experienced people in this forum. Alot of it has been critical to my ideas and the ability to successfully pull off the idea I have created... that was expected and I welcome it. I always take the time to read, think about, and respond to this advice. I have also received a ton of positive feedback and a large number of people that believe in me and my ability to pull this off. Many with just as much experience as the people who have doubted me.

If I seem stubborn it is because I believe in this, what other choice besides stubborn do I have? If I didn’t still think that this would work I would have stopped all this effort a long time ago. I'm not alone and proof of that lies in the generous amount on money investors have put behind me to go ahead with this project. I'm sorry that you think otherwise, and I suppose the only thing that I can say is that you will get the chance to scream "I told you so" in the coming weeks/months.

Tourbound68,

Let me know if I have properly addressed everything you brought up. There was alot to your reply and I wanted to make sure that you thought i responded to everything. Any additional questions or concerns to my response are welcome as well. I don't want to come off as ignorant or stubborn.

Grunching a bit:

This looks like you are trying to run an unregistered investment company. You aren't even licensed to do this. Aside from involving internet poker, the whole idea is probably illegal in the US. If anything were to happen it'd be pretty easy to file a complaint against you with the SEC and you could face jail time. Just something to think about before you decide to this.

got excited to see tdomeski was the last poster.


he didnt disappoint.

I cant believe this hasnt been brought up nor did I even think of it while considering this idea. How are you going to report this income on your taxes if this is going to be your full time job? The IRS is going to be all over your ass...

This point was brought up once already and I have thought about and accept the possible repercussions. I believe the legal ramifications are extremely minimal and If I were to find myself in legal trouble with the SEC there would be an entire tsunami of problems for thousands of people in the poker community.

The exception to that would be if I blatantly stole or cheated people.