Really? In another thread a little while back a pretty good player here (don't remember who) advocated raising a lot in the SB because people underdefend way to much.

Nobody wants to help me?

havent got it yet, so cant help u yet :-(

I was confused, thx

this is an important point. the starting ranges from the SB and other positions vary greatly depending on other players' strategies. there are players that i would open any two against from the SB. these players, however, become increasingly rare as you move up.

Great book, I'm a newer 6-max player and it has really help my game.

>I could have moved up, but cashed out over and over again. Now i decided to do this no more and finally keep moving up.

That's been my problem for some time. Like you, I recently made the goal: Stop farting around with your bankroll and move up!!

If you keep cashing out, your money will grow arithmetically. If you don't cash out and move up as your bankroll grows, your money will grow geometrically. Geometric growth is the key to getting rich so stop cashing out.

This isn't a message to you Alhazred as you have now figured this out. This message is intended for those who are still plagued by this terrible habit.

Re the question about folding AQ (p. 152):

That's an interesting example. The board is Ac7d4hJs. You capped preflop and raised on the flop, now you're checkraised on the turn.

Note that what Borer and Mak say is:
"You have top pair, second kicker but you are not drawing to many outs ... Don't fall in love with top pair. Previously, the rule was to go to the river with top pair heads-up, but every rule has some exceptions. There aren't many hands that you can beat with that board [given that the big blind's action has been] very strong."

I think that's an important example in the book, because it does show when you need to make a good (and tough) laydown. But, of course, it really helps to know your opponent in that situation--which they also suggest, if in somewhat restrained language. In my game, there's one very aggressive player who regularly makes that play with (e.g.) 55. It must win for him fairly often given that he keeps making it. But, of course, I and others are calling him down more often these days. (Come to think of it, I haven't seen him in the last couple of weeks ...)

This brings me to a more important point about the book. Contrary to this example (and why I think they wisely add it), Borer & Mak seem to advocate calling down more often than many would think wise (in many situations, on any pair, on A-high, and sometimes on K-high) on the grounds that in tough 6-max games there's so much bluffing. In some ways, this book is therefore a counter to Stox's book, which is aggressive in ways intended to buy the pot more often than most players are (or have previously been) accustomed to. In other words, the evolving arms race in poker play continues. As aggression grows, strategies to counter it are formulated.

After reading Stox's book, followed by this one, I found myself on a losing streak—my first one in a long while. When I analyzed it, I decided that was calling down way too much, trying to catch speeders--probably what I took away from reading Borer and Max. I went back to my previous style of making situational judgements and calling down a bit less, even if that meant being bluffed out occasionally and I went back to winning.

The lesson therefore: read these books and other books but be aware of the culture of your game and the style of your regular players. Be wary of applying any book unless you think it will help you. And your tracking or logging should alert you, any time you change your play, if there seem to be problems resulting ... or gains.

I'm very happy to have read both Stox and Borer & Mak because they have made me think more deeply about poker, have added some useful plays to my arsenal, have made me (even more) willing to play a controlled LAG style, and—most importantly—have helped me understand some of the plays I was seeing from other players. (I had thought those players who 3-bet 87s behind an opening raiser were nuts; now, I'm not so sure and I now make that move occasionally. Whatever else, it's probably better than cold calling.)

I think my real point is this: you don’t have to and should not adopt everything you read (and would be foolish to do so, since there's so much conflicting advice and since what works for others may not work for you)—but reading and study is valuable AND it also helps you get inside your opponents’ games.

Russell in Toronto

The flop raise in the AQ is pretty bad. Not quite "awful", but still bad.

you capped AQ and are facing a donkbet on A74r or what? i like raising the flop there imo.

The SSHE is what I believe a book by the other M, and contains strategies for so loose games of holdem you might not find them online even at 1c-2c, and it will be only full ring.

The King Yao is a book that in no way helps one's shorthanded play and is not accurate either, it just being some chatter so to say; I found it 100% useless, though I was trying to get something out of it, but I didn't. Not that it's a bad book, but it's useless. The Stox book is a bit tight here and there and it doesn't really teach an intermediate player much; one will still be wondering on post-flop strategy, one not getting any wiser there.

The Stox book is a good book, but it's no good when one is just seeing it plays about as well as one does, so it's good but one doesn't get any better.

As the Stox book is the top at these days, there's not anything an intermediate player can learn more, just the weaker player will get material that will speed their progress by a couple of years, and those not ready to work it out themselves will get it for free, that's not good when one could have kept robing the rocks blind without this book.

Why bother? Let villain barrel off.

Not to say Stox's book isn't good. I mean, i personally have never played 300-600 so i have no idea how that should be played. More of the limits i play are at the mid-limit range.

Barry's books is also quite excellent and it may be a little nitty, but his is geared towards full-handed, live play which is a little different than the short-handed, internet play.

Lawrence Mak

Thanks for the compliment.

For beginners, you fold 22-44 because when the inevitable 3 overcards come, where are you exactly? As you get better, you will figure out how good your hand is. With a hand like A2 and the flop comes A84 or KQ7. As a beginner, do you have a good idea of where you are at? Compare that with K6 and 33.

Lawrence Mak

folding 22-44 on btn is wrong even for an average player with high rake. I have a wr of 0.36BB with it over 409 hands.

I've read both books and I think both are excellent and complement each other very well. Also, I think the preflop differences are very small and probably won't have a huge effect on the long term winrate which one someone adepts. They are more like guidelines anyway, to lay some solid foundations until a player learns when he can deviate from them either looser or tighter in certain situations. Postflop skills are more important imo, than arguing whether A3o is the weakest button open or A2o..
A beginner online player can get a lot out of Lawrence's book's practical advices on internet gaming/software/table selection/setting up environment (including putting a bucket under your table for long sessions lol)
They approach postflop play differently, Stox focuses on different lines in different situations and puts greater emphasis to think equity wise, while Lawrence's book has the more traditional approach of flop/turn/river chapters, fine tuned for today's online shorthanded games.
Again, I think both are a must for someone who's serious about becoming a solid 6max player.
To Lawrence - I really enjoyed your book, great read!

Well, clearly you aren't a "beginner" then.

You have to draw the line somewhere for any of these hand charts. But i do think that a beginner would overvalue lower pocket pairs and really can't make the proper post-flop decisions to get away from it that an experienced player can.

That's why we recommend to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run.


Lawrence

With a bucket on one side and a mini-bar fridge on the other, why would you ever need to leave the house? =)

Glad you enjoyed the book.


Lawrence

U cant find girls in the bucket or the fridge

Hi, i have a question to the authors of "Limit Hold'em: Winning Short-Handed Strategies" about the german translation of this book:

Is there an error in the translation of the starting hands chart, or do i not understand the concept:

first-in you recommend to raise with K6s from CO, but from the BU its K7s...
why do i need a stronger hand in the BU?

Same question concerning BU vs. SB; you say i should raise from BU with K7s, Q8o, J9 but from SB its K8s, QTo/Q8s and JT.

I didn't understand the reason for this...

thank you for answering

BTW:
1) Is this the right place here in this thread for questions like this ? (there are more to come as i proceed in the book)

2) This book is really - as far as i can say - GREAT!!! (Anyway I prefer the bathroom.. my wife would declare me completly gone made if I would "install" your bucket-solution in our common homeoffice...)

hi, the author of this book is not a regular visitor here as far as I know so you probably will have better success contacting him on the forums of Barry Tannenbaum's website.

This mistake is in the same printing as the English version. The actual hand values is really an approximation or a guideline so that you can use experience to fine-tune your play.

I remember one hand: You have A9o in the BB in a 3-handed game. Button raises, SB 3-bets, and we recommend capping.

A pro-friend of ours said, "You are CRAZY! How could you cap with A9o? Are you insane?" We asked what he would cap with. "ATo for sure!".

Is there THAT much difference between AT and A9? well, slightly, but hand-values are more of a spectrum depending on the player.

Anyways, the best way is to just use the starting hands as a guideline, and then try to get to the "advanced" hands. Hopefully with positive experiences and analysis, you can figure out what works best for you and your style.

As for the Button vs. SB, you want to have a (slightly) better hand since you will be out of position for the rest of the streets.

Lastly, a sturdy bucket with a lid usually does the trick.

Lawrence Mak

We troll occasoinally. =P


Lawrence