Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
A theoretical question about WTSD A theoretical question about WTSD

01-31-2011 , 11:03 AM
I have a very low WTSD at $0.50/$1 (35-36) and high winrate (results) 2.5+ /100 with 27 VP$IP over a large sample and 1.5 BB/100 winrate (results) with 37+ WTSD at $1/$2 over a large sample with 27 VP$IP. My W$SD is 58-59.

My WTSD numbers are consider a very low around here. Any comments on my low WTSD numbers and high winrate (results)?

I know this low WTSD style doesn't work so well at $2/$4+ levels, but I'm going more showdown at $2/$4+ levels. Is going to showdown overrated at low levels?

I hope this isn't moved (buried) to the stats thread, please.

Last edited by I like Milfs; 01-31-2011 at 11:09 AM.
01-31-2011 , 11:23 AM
a wtsd of 35/36 is acceptable at .5/1 imo

there's not a lot of bluffing going on there. no reason to pay off light

your wtsd will go up naturally once you move up. as long as you keep studying your opponents and/or improving your game, ldo.

Last edited by dragon1893; 01-31-2011 at 11:39 AM.
01-31-2011 , 11:38 AM
in general, the more multiway pots you play, the lower your wtsd will be, and the lower stakes you play, the more multiway pots you will see because of the increased number of fish, plus there's likely less aggression/semibluffing than at higher stakes, so having lower wtsd at lower stakes makes sense in general.
however if you start focusing on "fixing" your wtsd instead of playing individual hands well, it's likely to have a negative effect on your play.
so instead of asking whether your wtsd is too low, post some hands where you were on the fence whether to fold or not at some point, that's gonna be more useful.
01-31-2011 , 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon1893
a wtsd of 35/36 is acceptable at .5/1 imo

there's not a lot of bluffing going on there. no reason to pay off light
There's many winning styles, but I can't see going to showdownd over 39% is optimal at $0.50/$1 at least, if your VP$IP is 27+. Can people who play at $0.50/$1 post their numbers, please?
01-31-2011 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daiquiri
in general, the more multiway pots you play, the lower your wtsd will be, and the lower stakes you play, the more multiway pots you will see because of the increased number of fish, plus there's likely less aggression/semibluffing than at higher stakes, so having lower wtsd at lower stakes makes sense in general.
however if you start focusing on "fixing" your wtsd instead of playing individual hands well, it's likely to have a negative effect on your play.
so instead of asking whether your wtsd is too low, post some hands where you were on the fence whether to fold or not at some point, that's gonna be more useful.
This is true. At $0.50/$1 you know where you are, players are very predictable and straightforward. Higher levels you are more guessing.
01-31-2011 , 12:29 PM
I will support your argument...

30,000 hands at .50/1.00
VPIP 30
PFR 22
WTSD 42
W&SD 51

BB/100= .13

I have the following problems and I have been unable to fix them so far...
1. I c-Bet too much on flop, turn and river
2. I don't 3! enough pre.
3. My aggression stats on turn and river suck
4. I call down with A-hi too often.
5. I suck at hand ranges
6. When I am confused, I just call. I get confused a lot.
7. I don't really like poker and I think it is a stupid game.
01-31-2011 , 12:32 PM
I'm pretty sure op's question refers to real money hold'em games
01-31-2011 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verno
I will support your argument...

30,000 hands at .50/1.00
VPIP 30
PFR 22
WTSD 42
W&SD 51

BB/100= .13

I have the following problems and I have been unable to fix them so far...
1. I c-Bet too much on flop, turn and river
2. I don't 3! enough pre.
3. My aggression stats on turn and river suck
4. I call down with A-hi too often.
5. I suck at hand ranges
6. When I am confused, I just call. I get confused a lot.
7. I don't really like poker and I think it is a stupid game.
rofl

ontopic: I found my hands from last year I played 0,5/1 - 12k, 1.82 BB/100, 29,9/21,3 , WTSD 33,4, W&SD 56,8, now on 2/4 is my WTSD 37,7 (and its imho still a less than is optimal), so as other guys posted, your WTSD will increase with higher stakes.
01-31-2011 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strixsr
rofl

ontopic: I found my hands from last year I played 0,5/1 - 12k, 1.82 BB/100, 29,9/21,3 , WTSD 33,4, W&SD 56,8, now on 2/4 is my WTSD 37,7 (and its imho still a less than is optimal), so as other guys posted, your WTSD will increase with higher stakes.

a slight nitpick -- it's not that your WTSD will increase with higher stakes, but the higher stakes typically bring more heads up pots which will more or less force your WTSD to increase

running at 35 WTSD is fine when there's often 3-5 players seeing a flop. Running at 35 WTSD when most hands are heads up on the flop will lead to your quick demise. Unless you're Unguarded and you consider flopping anything less than two pair "running bad".
01-31-2011 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorcho
running at 35 WTSD is fine when there's often 3-5 players seeing a flop. Running at 35 WTSD when most hands are heads up on the flop will lead to your quick demise. Unless you're Unguarded and you consider flopping anything less than two pair "running bad".
Average flop seen at 0.50/1 is under 3.
01-31-2011 , 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorcho
a slight nitpick -- it's not that your WTSD will increase with higher stakes, but the higher stakes typically bring more heads up pots which will more or less force your WTSD to increase

running at 35 WTSD is fine when there's often 3-5 players seeing a flop. Running at 35 WTSD when most hands are heads up on the flop will lead to your quick demise. Unless you're Unguarded and you consider flopping anything less than two pair "running bad".
true true, it is reason why is WTSD higher with higher tables
01-31-2011 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by I like Milfs
Average flop seen at 0.50/1 is under 3.
Table select better?
01-31-2011 , 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorcho
Table select better?
Average players at 6-max: 5.3

Average flop seen 3: 3/5.3 = 56.6

I'm pretty sure, that average flop seen % is under 56.6 at 0.50/1.
Most flops are HU or 3-way. 5-way pots aren't common.
01-31-2011 , 05:29 PM
i didn't say 5-way pots were the norm, but multi-way pots are significantly more common than at 5/10 and up, which is enough to make a 36 WTSD turn into 42 WTSD as you move up

all of this is obvious, of course
01-31-2011 , 05:48 PM
When people bluff and semi-bluff more your WTSD will go up. When there is more steal + re-stealing going on your WTSD will go up. When ranges get wider your WTSD will go up. If you want to win at higher limits your WTSD will go up.
01-31-2011 , 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorcho
a slight nitpick -- it's not that your WTSD will increase with higher stakes, but the higher stakes typically bring more heads up pots which will more or less force your WTSD to increase
This is a very good explaination of why your WTSD will naturally increase at higher stakes. This being the case you will find you won't have to 'fix' your WTSD as much as you think.

As long as you're mindful that at higher stakes that you need to take more marginal hands to SD you shouldn't need to make dramatic adjustments. This is because your opponents will be more likely to continue betting their missed and marginal hands all the way to SD.

FWIW, I have a WTSD of around 38 at 0.5/1 and 1/2 and do ok.

      
m