SB is 82/41/3.6 over 25 hands. Notes on him are "spewy. make sure you get to showdown"

BB is 32/11/1.1 Over 18 hands. No specific reads.


Full Tilt Poker $3/$6 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is MP with 8 A
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls

Flop: (6 SB) 8 Q 6 (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises??, SB folds, BB calls

Played this hand a few weeks ago, so I don't recall exactly what made me raise this flop, but I'm guessing that I had seen him donk flops w/ draws. If that's the case, do you guys prefer to wait for a safe turn?

Turn: (5.5 BB) 9 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

At this point I'm thinking "I haz top pair" syndrome, but flushes/flush draws are also in his range, right?

River: (7.5 BB) 9 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero ???

To be honest I'm sort of lost on all three streets and I think it's possible that I misplayed them all. Any insight?

I'm a bit of a calling station on the river but given 8.5:1 with a pair of 8's, I think you have to call and take your medicine from his obvious QT type of hand. The board was very drawy and a bad player (who this guy might be, though we don't have much knowledge of that based on your small sample size, might just donk that turn with something like KJ with the King of hearts. Probably not but I think you call and take your medicine.

Preflop and flop are fine.

I think I call down the rest of the hand. I'm not good enough to fold middle pair getting 8.5:1.

+1

If you have this note on him, then you probably can raise flop & bet turn for value.
Waiting for a safe turn is not so good in terms of value in this case since he'd often check turn (2SB+1BB > 1SB +1BB obv.).
But your read on him have to be strong, otherwise you are risking to be be 3-bet or c/r'ed on the turn or double donked (search Oink's posts about raising donk bets on the flop for more details).
And BB is also a concern.

IMO OK as played, though I'd just call flop donk most of the time.

Given your read on SB, I like the flop raise. SB may have complete air, and BB's flop call doesn't look very strong (unless he's slowplaying, of course). Without the read you have on SB, I'd probably just call.

Turn card mostly sucks, particularly once you face a donkbet on that card, but the call is easy since you hold the Ah.

On the river, now that we've gotten there, I call and pray for, like, 5h5c or KhJx, but I'm expecting to see something like T9/J9 or maybe even JT or a flush instead.

I'd fold the river. I don't think it's that close either.

Hero is playing from BB so Queens and nines make up a big part of his range. If he's the type to bet turn in to your flop raise with just a draw I think you'd know by now.

...on above I mean villain is playing from BB, not hero.

OK. Theres been some confusion...the spewy player from SB folded people.
When the BB donkbets I think you either have to call and fold a missed river or if you plan to go to showdown raise the turn and check river. If you are good you get the two bets, if you hit flush you get 3 bets. Villain will only 3bet with a flush and probably a big flush, since you have the A that reduces his range of 3betting hands. This means we're going to get much better equity by raising the turn with our position. By the offchance he does 3 bet we can fold river if we dont hit heart and we'll probably get two bets on the river when we hit the flush.

That being said...RAISE IT UP lol...probably the best line against this player.

I disagree. The bb is an unknown, so raising and folding should not be an option imo. I like the flop raise versus the players described but also wouldn't mind the call. I would just call the turn and river.

why call down both streets? The raise on turn gets you to showdown unimproved 8 for the same price or if you improve you gain an extra bet. Simple basic strategy IMO

What if you get 3! on the turn? You have a weak made hand and a draw to the nut flush. I would not raise the turn.

Ok, did you read my first post? it explains why the 3 bet has more positive EV than just a call down. This player is very passive, he's probably not even going to 3 bet the K high flush!!!!!! Absolutely won't 3bet the straight or two pair or a set.

This is what we call power of position, if we raise the turn and miss we check the river and win or lose two bets(same as if we call down). If we improve then we win 3 bets(I doubt this player bets at a heart river to allow us 3 bets by calling turn).

And if for some weird reason he does 3 bet we know we have 7 outs against his flush and 9 against his straights.

Now just to make it even more +EV; by raising we might sometimes(rarely but sometimes) get him to fold a better hand on the turn.

Karate, what makes you say he is very passive? 1.1 isn't that passive. And even a very passive player will 3bet with flushes, straights, and sets on this turn.

Your play is good if villain hasn't woken up like he did on the turn. That indicates that there's a good chance we'll get 3-bet by raising here.

He never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever folds a better hand on the turn.

Remember he has only played 18 hands against this guy.
IMO not enough for a solid read.

So after 20 hands on this player you know he wont 3bet turn with the K-hi flush and absolutely wont 3bet sets or straights.
Also , imo you have exactly 0 chances to make him fold the turn after he donks. He either completed a draw or picked up one.

Ok i never realized the 18 hands thing. But if this was over 500 hands you guys would still disagree with me.

If he did pick up a draw all the more reason to raise(value) and i still don't think at this level of a game a guy who has PFR of 4 and agg factor of 1.1 would 3 bet set and straights or even small flushes. And if we did have more hands and his stats stayed the same I dont think he would 3bet this turn with any flush but the nut flush and we have the Ah so we can rule this out.

Notice also i said rarely would fold the turn

That is absolutely 100% incorrect. 1.1, while sort of passive, is NOT as passive as you're describing. And even somebody with a .4 aggression would 3! most flushes on a 3-flush board, and definitely would 3! the king high flush. That's just silly.

Your play works if he was just firing a second barrel c-bet, but since he was passive the first 2 streets and suddenly wakes up on the turn, there is a good chance we're getting 3! on the turn, which is a disaster. You say it's not because we will win 2 bets on the river if we make a flush, which may be true, but in that case we're winning 5 bets ~20% of the time (probably a little less, since he's got 2 hearts in his hand at this point), and losing 3 bets ~80% of the time. Total profit .2(5) - .8(3) = -1.4 BB

Disaster.

well, I think you guys should work on using position a little better, I'm roughly 4bb/100 playing shorthanded limit on a sample over 50K hands which means I might be running a little better than usual but i think i can sustain 3bb/100.

I've done this play so many times and it works...maybe you don't know it works because you've never done it because you obviously feel its not a good play.


Also, I never said this is the Line you always take....i said "if you plan to showdown an UNIMPROVED 8" you should raise. i did say the call turn fold river was a good option as well.

You guys are getting all worked up over this...I've been a professional player for over 4 years now. this is an advanced strategy that even my worst students can grasp...stop thinking you know everything and actually look at the options.

I think I play it the same. I think you probably should fold the river, as I don't think you are good more than 1 in 10 times, but I am a calling station, so I probably make crying call and lose.

I would say this sure looks like a flush or straight. Even if he donked with a 9 you lose now. The only thing you are beating is a bluff or a weaker 8x, which are highly unlikely.

I've made free-showdown plays before, karate. I understand their purpose. However, a free showdown play is not something you should use when there is a chance that you'll get 3-bet. It's also not something that you should use if you have absolutely no fold equity.

We all understand the play, and its purpose. Most of the players in this forum I would venture are pretty solid winning players. Personally, I disagree that it is a good option in this situation. I want to see a showdown with my hand. I do not want to pay 3 bets to see a river. I also don't want to pay 2 bets on the turn, then have him donk a blank river.

I'm done with this thread for now, since it's getting to be a broken record. Maybe some other players can chime in.

The concept isnt to get a free showdown, its that IF you are plannign to call an unimproved river you should raise. everytime you raise theres a chance you can get 3 bet...so then you should never raise without the nuts?

I would probably call turn fold river myself as i dont see the 8 winning really ever. But for those guys planning on calling the river I believe that raising the turn has more positive EV then calling the turn AND the river. You will never make money by calling this hand down unimproved.

The bet in the turn after the raise in the flop seems to me a very strong play. You are behind. Raise for a free showdown is a play of way ahead way behind, when your purpose is to call the turn and the river. The problem with this play in this spot is that you lose in a showdown unless you get the flush, I don t think you make the BB fold with a semibluff raise, so call your 9 outs to get a flush and If you don t improve, easy fold. You know you are behind.

I think that betting the turn after being raised the flop is a very strong play. You can t raise the turn. You woun t make the BB fold his hand and you 'll have poorer odds for your flush draw. You want to see your draw the cheaper the better.