so i've noticed this trend over the last 3-4 months were people get capped on the flop or turn, and they have a huge hand, and then they just bet on out on the turn, in a spot where it's going to get checked through less than 10% of the time.


For example, say you raise JJ and get 3bet, and you cap, it's 4 ways.

flop is AJ5 with no flush draw.


You bet, fish calls, PF3guy raises, you 3bet, fish calls, PF3guy caps, you call, fish calls


turn is 4

you bet.


this is seriously tilting. You know the PF guy has Ax almost always, and he's not checking Ax, so he is going to bet, you get to c/r and get 3BB or more from Ax

If you bet and he has A9, he just calls down.


It's been happening a lot and it's not just one person, it's lots of people, and I'm not sure where this idea to bet the turn comes from. Trust me, ppl don't take free cards anymore. If you are worried the guy is capping with a flush draw, that's fine, because they still lolbet the turn with the flush draw.


The only time I personally donk the turn when I get capped on the flop is when it's HU vs. someone i know that loves to cap the flop with weak made and and draws and check back the turn. For example.


They raise in late position, I 3bet something like AQo, they call. Flop is Ax 8h7h

I bet, they raise, i 3bet, they caps, i call.

I figure they have a weak Ace, some gutshot, flush draw, or Q8, that is going to check the turn more than he is going to have AJ and bet call down.

turn 2s

I just bet so they don't get a chance to check. But in spots where it's multiway, and there just isn't a hand he can have to check, don't donk,


cliff notes: check raise more plz

c/r is the name of the game

I agree for the C/R in general but in your example, you have a fish that will probably fold if you C/R the turn but will probably call your donk as the PF3guy.

Sure, the fish might not fold at your C/R. But you could see the PF3guy reraise again and then 3bet the turn also if you donk.

Another problem with the donk turn, the fish could be drawing with a gutshot and doesn't make a mystake by calling the turn donk but would if you C/R.

Heads-up, you have to go for the C/R all the time, i agree. but must of the time, i end up agaisnt AA lol!!!

you might have a point here but the first c/r turn erxample is kind of bad thanks to the fish inbetween.

if you bet the fish is very likely to put in one bet. if the 3-bettor raises thats fine.

if you check the fish checks and the 3-bettor bets out, you raise and show ultimate strength. the fish is much more likely to fold for 2 +the initial 3-bettor might reevaluate his hand taking into account that you c/r'ed after he capped the flop

Serius man, Hip is making an thread for this specific subject and you are making escuses for justifying the donk.


Lets see your mistakes:

A) LOL at fish folding - does not compute


B) FYP

C) LOL at you are worried about the fish folding - serius man, stop it


D) FYP - if you want to cap the turn, as you should with a monster, you have to go for an C/R, if you donk/3rd bet, its an super strong move, and the action will calmdown, but the C/R isnt so super strong and vilan probably go for a 3rdbet, thinking that you improve some how your hand with the turn.


I hope that its clear this way

Even you sir !? you should know better


When the fish is not caught in between you just dont know if he is paying or not. But lets take this example:

Line C/R - 2 BB going in for sure, minimum, even if the fish folds (lol)

Line donk - 2 BB going in if the two of them call


So you lost alot of value when you dont C/R and the fish calls, and what normally the fish does !?

no actually, if the fish has a gutshot, you want him to fold in this huge pot. It's value vs. the PF3 guy, and protection/value vs. the fish.

Like, for example, PF3 guy has something like AK, he is never folding if you c/r. If the fish has KQo, if he calls 2 on the turn, great, if he folds for 2, great. But if the fish has A5, he's never folding top pair, so now you get both ppl to pay more.

Timok, if you have JJ on a AJ4 board, and the turn was a J, then I might donk, just so the fish doesn't fold. But in the made up hand, you want that fish to fold any draws that can beat you, it's a large pot.

I agree with the C/R, i'm just saying that i don't beleive there is a rule that applies 100% of the time for a move... About 95% of the time, i'll check-raise the turn in the example.

But i don't agree that the C/R on the turn isn't a super strong move, the PF and flop are capped and you go for a CR on the turn when a brick comes with 2 players in the hand???... You really believe that the vilain will think: ok he's a donk with A4o and my AJ is still good?

What kind of hand do you beat here that will 3 bet the turn if you C/R in this example? AJ or AA....3 combos of each and since he 3bet PF a UTG raiser, i'll tend to beleive AA is a little more probable than AJ cause only one AJs left.

So without a read that he can spew a AK type of hand here, i would not cap the turn if i get 3bet again. I'll go for the SD.

But i agree that the C/R is the best line here.

agree 100% on that

@ hip: what games do you usually play?

in general I aggree with your lines and I think from a game play point of view they are very correct.
But it seems like we have different understanding of "the fish". maybe my fish at stars low limit is different from yours?

5-T and 10-20 mostly


But if a 50-10 has A5, and you c/r the turn, he's not folding top pair, even at 5-T.

Basically the fish isn't important here, you get 3BB from the PF3 guy, and if the fish calls or folds for 2 on the turn, both are good for you. If you donk and he has QT, him calling isn't a mistake

Well, you're mostly arguing that c/r/(possible cap) > b/3b

I agree 100% on the river, but on the turn there are sometimes that they much rather raise my "donk" than shuffle money in the pot when I c/r.

Depends on the read on the player who capped. How quickly is he slowing down?

I agree with this, if I happen to lead in this spot it gets raised way-way more often, than my c/rs get 3bet so if I want to get in as many bets as possible then leading is often a better option vs many players. If it's an average tag at my stakes and he has top2, he will read me as a naked top pair if I lead and raise me again, so I can 3bet, whereas if I cr he will instaput me on a set usually

agreed vs bad low stakes tags/fish

I think hips point is good at 10/20 + where the bad players might not tend to put in as much action and can hand read slightly better. Also the board texture hip gave in the op is great for c/r.

this is basic hand reading... nothing new is happening in the last 3-4 months... people just suck at hand reading often times

so you are trying to bet/3bet the one combo two pairs that will raise, and you only get 2BB from Ax that's that dont raise.


like everything in poker, a read helps, so if you think he will raise, then yes, donk the turn. But as a standard line, ppl dont usually raise this turn with AT, so c/r >>> betting


you also get 2BB from the fish's Ax or make him fold a draw

that's why i'm taking the time to point this out, because i have seen lots of players do this in HH in the last few months, and it's tilting to me, because it seems so basic.

not trying to call anyone out in particular, just trying to show why c/r is going to be better overall

3bets>2bets imo

it's not just this hand Victor, it's been all over the place, in spots where betting is just insanely bad compared to c/r.

I'm not going to argue over which line is better in a hand I made up in 4 seconds. Just wanted to point out a trend I have seen lately


also, who cares what you think, you are a losing player

I agree with the general advice. But how can he have A9-ATo after flop unless he is really bad?

so when he caps the flop, he has AJ/AQ/AK/and AA

which of those hands is going to raise the turn AJ and AA, 3 combos you beat, 3 you lose to


what hands aren't going to raise the turn AQ/AK all hands you beat.


the point is, when someone caps you on a board where he can't have a draw, and you have the nuts, don't donk the turn

As said.I agree with the general advice. But it is much easier to get through when you don't explicitly point out hands he "can't" have like A9 in the OP and AT in the post I quoted.
Splitting hairs is what I do best for the moment. Sorry

hip, do you lead turn w AA on the AJ5 hand?

nope

people usually check back A5 when I have JJ hear so donking in necessary