A respectable friend tells me that long term the games even below 10/20 aren't really worth playing because rake has gone up over the years. Without better game selection etc you can't just sit down like you used to at 8+ tables and beat the hell out of the games for 2-4 BB/100.

My opening questions are (not by any means limited to these):

How big an impact do you think the rake really is at these stakes?
Do you really feel without rake you are beating the game for say 4-6 BB/100 and then after the rake kills you at 2-3 BB/100 you are still able to profit?
How is a new player or small stakes player supposed to move up with this situation? Is the new player doomed to never really move up?
Is there a big enough edge as there used to be between good and bad players without a lot of game selection, position, etc?

Ending question, is it even worthwhile to play anything 5/10 and below if you are in it to build a bankroll and move up?

My quick opinion. It does seem goofy that it would be pointless to play anything below 10/20. Then any of the current players are just trading money back and forth and eventually the only winner is going to be the site. The hot streaks will not make enough of a difference in the long term.

When did the rake go up?

the rake went up a few years back from $2.5 to $3 for 6max. This was at party so I'm not sure about other sites, but this was also when everyone played at party and other sites didn't matter. But yes, the games are unbeatable and anyone who says otherwise is a liar and/or a gambling addict. Or ******ed, they just might be ******ed.

lhe is not beatable, it's dead anyway, there's nothing to see here

I find it hard to believe LHE is dead. There were 10+ full 10/20 6max games on PS the last time I checked.

plo is a fun game

in before the facepalm

and now for something completely similar

No, it is not.

Facepalm.

I know, I don't even have a nifty image, but you like how I put a period after 'facepalm,' like it was a whole sentence, right?

@ OP: The games have gotten tougher, but it's way easier to get good than it used to be. And yes, they're beatable. Even $.02/.04, where nobody has any respect. The rake isn't that high, and you have to factor rakeback/bonuses, which make net rake even lower.

Yeah, it seems like rakeback has gone up over the years, especially at stars. I think the new VIP system this year may have added another 5-10%.

But 1-2 to 5-10 were never beatable; nobody folds.

yeah. go play PLO HU. nobody is solid there!

+1

I dont think its unbeatable either, but I dont have a ton of online experience with lhe either

I see too many winning players below 5/T stake.

Just in case this isnt a level:

A few years ago I never played at sites where bonuses and rb added up to less than 60% rb. Most sites I played at were in the 70-110% range

a few years ago I played at party (like everyone else).
but poker is more about now and the future

there's no money limit holdem everyone's solid

Also, any type of leveling is completely forbidden by the forum rules.

Go sit down at a 2/4 6 max table.

nope. everyone's solid

confirmed

heh yea, but my point was that the general trend for the last years is that rakeback is going down in value rather than up.
And I at least have no reason to suspect that this trend wont continue.

The only exception that comes to mind is the recent changes at stars.

Well isnt that proof that they are beatable? nobody folds, more mistakes?

I think it's more like rakeback is hitting equilibrium, where all of the sites have more similar %s. Also, most of the sites with 60%+ actually have higher gross rake, so net rake paid is similar.

Finally, you had all those Euro sites. It's harder to get 60%-110% in the US.

Your friend may have been confused. Any game under 10-20 LIVE "at most places" is unbeatable. Online is completely different.