CO is 44/31/4.4 wtsd31 1431hands
SB is 53/22/1.6 109hands

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A T
2 folds, CO raises, Button folds, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: 8 9 T (6SB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: 6 (5BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

River: T (9BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 11BB

I would check that turn and call river hoping he fires with Tx, or pairs as it seems he's pretty agressive.

I play it the same.

3-bet preflop is bad. flop raise is pretty bad (you are never folding out any draws and I would wait until the turn to raise and try to fold out the CO).

other than that looks good

given their stats I think 3-betting pf for value is good.

IMO you probably have some PF value but I would think that any PF value can be discounted when OOP against guys this aggressive

I doubt it matters much.

their stats make c/r'ing with a decent made hand after the flop good, not pushing marginal equity edges in horrible relative position. Building big pots out of position against LAGs with mediocre but SDable hands is a recipe for disaster.

AT is a strong hand in this situation.

if we give them their full range we only have 40% equity, but we've narrowed our range very easily for them (big pairs and big As). So now we have to deal with whether or not to SD a mediocre A-high if we get raised on a drawy board. I think this is one where being in horrible relative position and being put in a lot of tough spots postflop easily outways a relatively small equity edge.

but keep 3-balling out of the BB with ATo if it is working for you.

somebody should find some way of finally figuring out how much being OOP costs to stop such discussions once and for all.

there are too many variables to consider. for me the important thing is how well do I play postflop, and can I make the correct decision a high enough portion of the time to take advantage of the equity I can gain preflop.

I think I make mistakes postflop, especially in bad relative position against LAGs. Therefore I try not to pump med-strong hands in spots where I am not gaining enough.

I think a good comparison would be to the thread that you see every couple of months that says "My table is full of idiot spewtard lags, but I have horrible position. Is it worth staying there?" I've found that for me it isn't. I get up from those spots if I can't change seats to have good position on the crazy lags. But some people can probably play from those spots, and the bad players are making enough mistakes that the table is still profitable. So my decision is based on my assessment of my edge in the game, both in that example and in your hand.

then again there are a lot of posters on here that play fantastic postflop and usually know what to do in tough spots, so maybe for them it is worth taking advantage of these small preflop equity spots.

IMO for the average poster in this forum this is a bad preflop raise.

I don't like 3-betting pf either since sb is coming along. I think it's close though. I think it would be okay with ATs and AJo.

I think raising the flop is good. Our hand is vulnerable and we need to protect it.

I agree with betting the turn too. We're still vulnerable and I really don't want to give any free cards. Calling down is fine too.

With the exception of pf I play it the same.

yeah, actually a pretty boring hand when you look at their stats.

I think the preflop issue is a red herring. Three-betting is fine and is probably +EV if you play well after the flop. Yes, you will sometimes be put in tough spots forcing you to either calldown expecting to lose or fold knowing you will win some amount of the time. But you also get more value when you make a winning hand and take down some small pots you would not have won without the initiative. All in all, it's somewhat close to a wash (though I agree with those who say 3-betting is better than calling in terms of this hand's immediate EV). The other consideration is that these "loose" raises tend to induce extra action and since your range of 3-betting hands is stronger than ATo, you should be happy with that.

Postflop, the flop is a tough spot, but I think raising is pretty good. You should be happy to fold Qx hands and things like A6 and K6s from CO. Generally any bets are going in favor you in equity, even though some of that is discounted because you have reverse implied odds here.

Turn is a pretty nasty spot. You're either calling down expecting to lose b/c you think you will see JT/J9/etc. often enough plus be against hands where you have hidden outs (96/86) to justify it, or you believe he only makes this raise with a 7 or QJ and you fold. Seems like a question of reads. I used to be in the "always call down here" camp back when the games played a bit crazier, but now there are several players who are loose/bad preflop but who I don't think would make a move in this spot and I would fold against.

what is the value in raising the flop? Guys with stats like that are never folding hands that have a lot of outs against us (KQ or KJ) or a better hand. The only hands that we get CO to fold are those that we have dominated (Ax or small pkt pairs).

However if we waited until the turn we could raise a safe card (the 6 is pretty safe) and probably fold out the CO or make him pay to draw if he has a hand like KQ or KJ, and safely fold to a turn 3-bet from the SB.

I think this hand plays a lot easier if you realize your hand is pretty vulnerable on the flop and wait until you see a safe turn card to put in a lot of action.

Obviously flop is close, but the pros for raising are:
* We get value out of worse hands and/or fold out a hand which has some outs against us in a pot that is already getting to be somewhat big.
* By playing our hand rather straightforwardly and indicating strength, the hand becomes easier to play on later streets, as our decisions on later streets will vary depending on how the action goes and what falls.

I'm not trying to find a way to fold out KQ or KJ (good luck with that) or to fold my hand after putting in 2 BB on the turn. Rather, I'm looking to get value out of all the worse Tx/9x/8x hands and push my equity edge when I am up against duplicated draws (e.g. AT vs JT vs Q9). In that example, we're trying to dodge 12 cards twice getting 2-to-1 on our money.

I think it is time to reread SSH. I'm pretty sure that Miller advocates waiting to raise the turn in situations like this where we can't protect our hand on the flop and our equity can drastically change on the turn.

why can't we protect our hand on the flop with a raise? CO folded right?

if CO folded it means he has a worse hand. Guys with those stats don't fold KQ, KJ or probably even AQ or AK for 2 sb. Likely he had an Ax (which we had dominated) or a small pkt pair (which we had dominated). If he folds we didn't protect our hand because we didn't need to, and we probably lose the hopeful call that he might have made. However if we wait until the turn to raise we can possibly fold out his overs-with-straight draws, and at least charge him to see the river. Plus we can easily fold to a 3-bet on the turn from either the SB or CO.

No this is not a good example for waiting for the turn for a number of reasons:

*The player showing strength is on our right, not our left. (That is if SB bet, CO called and we were the button, calling planning to reassess the turn is a good play. We don't have that positional luxury here.)

* Our hand is not very strong -- it only warrants a turn raise when the most favorable cards come (A/T/5/4/3/2). This is less than half the deck.

* Related to the first point, we're not closing the action. Just because we call the flop doesn't mean that it's only going to cost us 1 SB. If we raise and CO 3bets, it is the SB who has a tough decision. If that results in SB folding 86 and CO has a hand like KT through JT, that is a major coup for us.

* Those times we do fold out CO (even if he has a dominated hand like 44 or A6) are valuable because we acquire the button for the last two rounds.

The flop decision is close and there's obviously good reason to want to wait for the turn card and reassess. Unfortunately, there are also good reasons to go ahead and put in a raise on the flop. It's a close decision and not a "textbook" example either way.

Good stuff SweetJazz. Ty

Pizzle

Wow, you are way of here IMO.

- When Hero calls the flop and is OOP on the turn he runs the risk of the turn getting checked through. Which woould suck donkey balls.

- When Hero gets it HU with position after folding CO he can make easier decisions on later streets when scare cards drop.


Seriously, having position is useless in this hand? I really really disagree.

EDIT: I really just wanted to say that in general I hate waiting for the turn when I am OOP. It just gets checked through too much.

Oh, and I dont care what Ed Miller writes because all that I know is that he beat small stakes live games ten years ago. For all I know 90% of the posters here are better LHE players than him.

Some confusion here. The player on our right (SB) is the one who I am referring to as showing stength (his flop bet). I agree that CO is not necessarily that strong (his range is very wide at this point).

And what's your plan for the other 60% of the deck when SB bets again and CO is still sitting there waiting to act behind you. Are you planning to give up? Call one bet and fold to a CO raise? I think that this situation can be handled, but it's not very easy and is what we should expect most of the time.

I agree that we can fold to a 3-bet on the turn, but we can generally fold to a turn raise or check/raise as well, especially after a Q, J or 7 hits (obviously).

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The button is useful because it allows us to extract value on the river, and I'm not opposed to taking a free card on the turn if something bad falls off, particularly if I have a read on the SB which makes my river decision (instacall or instafold) easy.

Obviously we just differ in the relative merits of each play. I can tell you that if I am the CO, I much prefer to play in a game where people wait for the turn to raise because it allows me to peel a lot of flops liberally in position and play perfectly. (And LOL, I'm not bad enough to fold KJ on a T98(3) board, and neither are most LAGs.)