I hate to beat a dead horse but raising the flop to both get a free card and to charge draws is a logical fallacy. It just doesnt work that way. Either you raise the flop and then bet the turn to charge a draw the maximum, or you raise the flop and check behind to take your free card.

Also, raising the flop to knock out the btn is bad because our hand is very unlikely to be a favorite at this point. It is true that usually when a player donkbets that is a sign of weakness. But even so, it is usually a sign that they have some piece of the flop meaning second/bottom pair or a reasonable draw. Vs this range we are not a favorite with out Ace high. Therefore we do not want to put extra bets into the pot because were at an equity disadvantage and each additional bet is costing us money. On top of that we really want btn to come along for the ride because that way were getting an overlay on our bet.

And raising the flop to fold out a better hand just in case utg is on a draw and btn has a hand like bottom pair is just ridiculous because btn is never ever folding a pair here.

I think it's not that you don't express yourself well that is the problem. It's that you don't know what you are talking about.

I think it's pretty obvious that all good players and posters here disagree with you and that should tell you something.

This is often true yes.

Going to SD is not a bad idea, but how you get there is also important. You have to choose the line that you think is best given the combined range of hands that you give villain. You can't protect on one street and draw on the next, it's just soo stupid.

Do you mean information in this hand or general information about villains donkingrange? If you raise to get information about his hand it's just to expensive to raise to find out that he has a good draw or made hand when he 3-bets and a weaker draw or made hand when he calls. The information doesn't help you enough to motivate building the pot.

If you want information about his range you get the same info no matter what line that you take to reach a SD.

How can he 3-bet for a freecard in position? He will 3-bet a good draw and bet turn and you might fold the best hand.

If villain has a draw or air he is likely to bet again on turn if we call flop. If you raise flop he might fold air there and then you gain nothing. With a draw he will call you raise and the be thrilled that you give him a freecard. If he hits river he bets and you call. If he miss river you bet and he folds. I hope you see how thats not good for you.

If he has a small pair he will call you raise and when you check turn he will either bet or checkcall river. He is less likely to bet if you hit an ace. You save 0,5BB when you miss and ususally loose 1-2 BB when you hit. You have 24% chance to hit on turn so your freecardplay costs you about 0,36 BB in missed value. You miss 76% so the value of the freecard when you miss is 0,38BB. The total value of the freecardraise when you really need the freecard is 0,02BB.

Even if you knew you need a freecard the freecardplay has almost breakeven value. Here you don't know by far if you need the freecard and you expose yourself to getting 3-bet or donked or c/r:ed on turn and then have to decied if you should call down with A-high or fold what might be the best hand. Also checking turn after raising flop gives up all your foldequity that your flopraise provides.

This is a common situation i find myself in, and, i'm sure i don't always handle it well.

If I have a good sample size on the donker, i look how often he check raises.

If he "knows" how to check raise (his af suggests he does), i'll put him on a draw and raise (hopefully knocking out the button), bet the turn if no spade comes, and check the river UI. I'd fold to a spade UI. I'd bet a non-spade ace, and call the ace of spades down and likely loose to the flush.

If he doesn't check raise, i'd put him on a pair, peel the turn, and fold UI. I'd call down a J and raise an A.

I find these spots tough.

I just call this flop too because I happen to think this is the best play the majority of times.


But I don´t think a raise necessarily means that we understands poker poorly.
If you think that BB sometimes bets a worse hand then a raise on this board could fold out some hands button can have that beats us.If he didn´t have a better hand a raise is good anyway because we get rid of a player acting behind us which makes our decision on turn much easier.Because if we don´t face him with two bets he probably is still there on turn with his six outs intact.
That means that when BB is donking his flush draw again then we can´t call turn UI because we have a player acting behind us.1 SB on the flop could prevent us from that scenario.So if BB is a half good player he should respect our flop raise since it is usually the line of a decent hand that wil see showdown.If he is not respecting it and can 3-bet draws or make sudden hopeless "turn donks" then a flop raise goes down in value.But if he is that kind of player then we perhaps are already folding the best hand on turn anyway by just calling flop.
And the reason for taking the freecard on turn after that raise is that we are more likely to be behind BB then in front but we have enough equity to continue in the pot.
So our turn check is like every other value-check we do on turn.

However If we always have made our mind up to showdown our AJ UI against the donk then I don´t see any point in raising.
But as I read your posts you didn´t intend to do that.

This is a very productive remark. I don't like you too.

I mean information about how is my hand compared to villain's one

you are right, he can't raise for free card. I didn't re-read the hand

OlivLu: If you accept that you don't know what you are talking about you have the chance to start learning and then my remark could be the most productive in your poker career. It's up to you.

I'm sorry, I don't... I choose a line for the turn not to be 3-handed, then I slow down and don't want to put much money in the pot. It can't be that bad.

"my remark could be the most productive in your poker career."
wow ! with all the respect I get for you, this is too much for me

Yes it is.

What OlivLu is saying is that he would like to see a showdown(because he thinks it's a good probability BB has flush draw)
If we want to see the cheapest possible showdown, a raise is probably best(dunno about higher limits but at 2/4 BB will check turn at least 90% of the time)
Also it makes turn play easier in case we turn something if we remain 3 players(BB will check and we will check behind, if we hadn't raised and BB bet, we could be squeezed by BTN)

So to resume: if BTN folds we get the cheapest possible showdown, if BTN stays in it makes turn play easier


I admit I used to raise this quite a lot, I understand now the logic behind just calling and I have to admit it's better but I saw a logic in raising too

Assume that you call flop and the turn bricks off.The donker donks again and button is still behind you.What is your play?

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but I see comments like this and I can't help but feel a little skeptical. Imo, its very difficult to quantify what Button does with a bottom pair type of hand. I wouldn't count on him folding any piece of the flop, but I think its a very real possibility that he does. Just becaues someone is loose-passive preflop, doesn't mean they aren't weak-tight post, or at least willing to make a fold when the prospects are very poor for their hand.

First sane thought in this entire post!!!!

Hey Olive, I don't think raising this flop is bad. I think that a few of your detracters on this site are more concerned with proving their expertise and supporting their egos than seeing your post for what it is.

Either Raising or calling here can be correct depending on your reads and the situation.

So much of this is player dependent on the donker but I tend to not like the spot here.

I might just fold. I don't think I raise. If the button is bad and passive I would peel.

Can I do both!?

Seriously Oink, I know you get carried away sometimes but this isn't acceptable. New posters and different opinions are both welcome here. There is no excuse for abusing someone just because you disagree with their post about how to play a hand.

I would probably fold with calling being the main alternative.

There are specific players that raising would work well against but in general it is bad. You are putting in a lot of money with a weak hand and a 3-bet would be very bad for you.

Beware using the free card play with a weak made hand. Often the only reason you get the free card is because you have the best hand.

The main reason I choose fold over call is because I don't know what I'm doing versus this opponent. My read is almost nonexistent so not only do I have no idea what he has, I also have no idea how he will play the turn and river. I'm not eager to prolong a marginal hand when I am likely to make expensive mistakes later on. For example, if I call some Villains will tend to keep betting all their small pairs but checkcall their draws. Others do the exact opposite. Still others never stop betting anything until you raise. It's hard to make money with this weak hand if you have no idea about this.

It's really important to keep watching this hand after you fold. You cannot always be folding your PFRs to these lead bets so next time you better have some answers.

Thank you so much.

Well, finally, we can agree on one point : a donk generally means a weak hand

Fair enough. Lets assume there`s a non-zero possibility that button folds a pair. But then we need all thre conditions to be true for a raise to make sense (i.e. utg has a draw and btn has bottom/middle pair and button will fold bottom/middle pair).

If any of these conditions are not met then were putting extra money into the pot at an equity disadvantage with little benefit.

This is a typical 2+2 veteran thread where everyone batters a newbie without even realizing how rigid they are.
Button is going to peel the flop really really lite.BB is going to donk his flush draw on turn a 100% of the time.When a blank hits turn your play is what?

just to be clear, i peel this flop, but I made that comment because I think its a mistake to always assume that LP's won't fold a pair, especially to a bet and a raise.I agree its too much of a parlay for it to accomplish what we want often enough tho.

Apanage

When you raise flop and villain donks turn again, what is your play?

Also, what is your play when you raise flop, BTN calls 2, turns bricks off, you check, BTN bets, donker calls..?

People are playing way too aggro in these spots. Trying hard not to be a station and what not.

I call flop. A lot of turns will help me so I can continue if BTN overcalls. If BTN dont overcall which he wont always I generally try and SD. If BTN overcalls and turn bricks off I am fine with folding but obv I am giving up the best hand some. However in that exact same scenario where BTN overcalls and donker fires again it isnt that likely that we even get to take a free card or get BTN out. Usually when BTN calls 1 he will call 2 a lot as well. Obv his "call 1" and "call 2" ranges arent the same but for a lot of fish they are not that different either

Raising will also open ourselves for a flop 3-bet which would suck.


Really, I dont think is even close. Its another 25/18/2.7 old school TAG play that is grossly overvalued

I would also like to add 1 thing that I missed earlier.

If we say that we raise flop and get BTN to fold. Then I claimed that taking the free card made no sense.

I would like to take that back!

Say we do raise and get it HU. Then on the turn we are faced with a decision to put in 1 more bet on either turn or river. Either a) take/give a free turn and then call river. Or b) bet turn and check river UI.

Taking/giving the free card is just fine if we think villain will bluff river with his busted draws and/or if we think he will c/r the turn.


So I apologize for claiming that checking turn was inconsistent with raising flop. It can certainly be the play on the turn given the flop raise.

I still think the flop raise is bad tho.