Villain has only just sat down a couple of hands ago.

What's the plan? I use to call & see if he fires again (& for a ). & if he does what should I do??! ewww!!

Poker Stars $2/$4 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is CO with 6 6
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, BTN 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls

Flop: (10.5 SB) Q 5 K (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, UTG folds, Hero??

Just to give us something to work with, let's say Villain has a range of 77+, A9+, and KJ+. In that case, he has 57 combos worth of 2nd pair or better hands, which I'm thinking are all showdown bound. He's also got 30 combos of JJ-77, which also hate this flop but are most likely showdown-bound unless we throw a checkraise into the postflop mix and might be showdown-bound regardless.

We are currently beating the AJ-A9 hands (48 combos). Three of those combos have big flush draws, and it's really only the non-flush A9 that we have any hope of getting rid of anytime soon (the gutter for AT/AJ will usually get those hands at least to the river).

Anyway, Stove tells me that our actual equity against that 77+, A9+, KJ+ range is 30 percent. And even though the range itself is kind of a guess, 30 percent sure seems like a lot of equity if we're contemplating a fold at an immediate 11:1. Hell, if we could count on Villain to barrel off blindly, we could just close our eyes and call down no matter what fell at 15:5 and figure on profiting slightly.

So I think I at least like a peel, mainly in hopes of a 6 but also figuring a heart is enough to get us to the river, and then also sometimes Villain won't fire the turn (which, annoyingly, probably just means he has pocket T's , but still).

Given that it would make so much of his potential range uncomfortable, a checkraise seems worth considering. I doubt I'd have the balls to pull the trigger on such a play, though. Also, I don't know if it's a good idea or not. It depends in large part of how good our chances are of getting better pocket underpairs to fold. I mean, if we somehow knew he was bet-folding 77-JJ on the flop and that 77+, A9+, KJ+ was in fact his range, then it seems that a flop checkraise would be a terrific play (particularly when we consider that we're not actually required to follow up with a turn barrel). But I'm not at all confident that JJ-77, as a rule, are giving up so easily.

Biggest problem I have with a flop c/r (purposely to attmept to fold better hands) is the flush draw on there. I figure everyone & their dog will suspect FD & just get their butts to SD.

Otherwise yeah I agree. Also I guess I'm always peeling here I prolly should stopped the action @ the turn. It's just that I like to plan a line from the flop up, hence why I stopped it there I guess.

Well, I admitted that I'd probably wouldn't make the play. I don't think that it's an easy play to make unless Hero is a gambooler at heart. Even under the "ideal" conditions of JJ-77 giving up immediately, the play usually isn't going to work.

But it is still true that if we somehow knew Villain were bet-folding JJ-77 and that those hands made up about 1/4 of his range, then a flop checkraise sure would win us a lot of extra pots -- considerably more, I think, than it would lose to the 3-bets we'd run into from, like, AhTh and aggressively played AJo hands.

But, let's face it, half of Villain's JJ-77 hands contain a heart and probably aren't going into the muck yet, if ever. And Villain is going to be tempted to peel JJ and its set and backdoor straight draws regardless. Hell, even if we showed Villain K9o, he might peel JhJx.

Also, you're right that it's easy to get suspicious on this board.

Ok talked myself into it, here's the hand again with turn. Actually now to think of it, that K may make it a little more interesting. As I'm pretty sure that everyone will fire their entire range there.

Poker Stars $2.00/$4 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
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Pre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is CO with 6 6
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, BTN 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls

Flop: (10.5 SB) Q 5 K (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, UTG folds, Hero calls

Turn: (6.25 BB) K (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero?

Interestingly, versus that same 77+, A9+, KJ+ range I was using before, on a complete blank turn (I used the deuce of spades), our equity actually goes up to 31 percent. Apparently the most important factor against that range is that A9, AT, and AJ still haven't outdrawn us.

Lots of people will barrel 2nd barrel those hands (especially the AJ and AT, I think), and some players will be more inclined to 2nd barrel them than to bet 88 again.

A big question does seem to be how "low" Villain will re-iso from the Button with his Ax hands versus a CO iso-raise, and it's unfortunate that we have no real way of knowing.

True, unfortunately they were a complete unknown. They did however have a cute asian chick avatar (& not a world cup promo avatar!), but that's all I got to go on!

I would call the turn. But suppose a T or J fell on river, is it safe to check-fold vs 2-4 unknown?

If your assumption about firing their entire range is true, then I don't see how we can consider folding the turn unless an unknown 2/4 player's preflop 3-betting range (and then flop c-betting range) is narrower than my imperfect observation has led me to believe. (I do, BTW, think that his range is probably narrower than it would be if UTG hadn't limped; for instance, some players will resteal or fold vs. a CO open but will consider cold-calling with UTG already in.)

Anyway, our chances of getting counterfeited just went up, but as compensation we're less likely to be up against AK etc., and versus 77+, A9+, KJ+, we're still at about 31 percent.

And, of course, the hand as a whole is one of those crappy RIO spots where it's hard to find any magic solution to our problems (probably because none exists). I mean, one annoying thing is that a turn c/c followed by a river c/f UI is the best line against many players on this board (since they won't have unpaired undercards and they won't turn Ax into a bluff on the river). But it's also a terrible line against someone who's going to barrel off with pretty much his entire range, and those players exist too.

Gunna add this in spoilers as I don't wan't it to influence my post.

For Nick C's eyes only!!

Those are really bad cards (and an A would be even worse). I'm not going to claim it's 100% "safe" to do so, but I would c/f.

c/c flop
c/evaluate turn
c/f river UI

?

My initial thoughts on the hand are "Wow that sucks" and "He's never going to fold a pair on that board". The board just has that super wet look to it. The UTG limper probably tightens up the ranges a little bit from both your points of view, also, but I'm not really sure of what all that affects other than putting an extra 3 small bets into the pot which sure is nice.

I used to just insta-fold here, and in a live 20 game I'm pretty sure that's still what I do against a complete unknown. A9-AJ are probably wishful thinking for most of them and I have a feeling removing those hands from Villain's range sends our equity plummeting. That said a c/r bluff against 77-JJ is probably more viable in that situation....Online I think I peel, and given that I would do that I'd certainly also call the turn as it doesn't let anything new beat us (giving villain some more outs when we are ahead is bad but them's the breaks). And once I get to the river with a pair in an 8 bet pot.....

FiveFifty ITT.

I just fold here, though I am not confident that it is correct. To call down, I think we need to win a little more than 25% of the time getting about 19.5:5 effective odds. Our equity against a typical range is going to be just a tad bit better than that, while we are doing ok against a spazzy range and pretty badly against an overly tight range. But I think our opponent will use his position to make things worse for us.

I don't like the idea of taking lines where we peel and fold. We have nowhere near the pot odds/implied odds to draw when behind, our backdoor draw is very weak, and I don't want to establish a pattern of bloating and folding against an unknown.

I don't really see the point in peeling here, unless I know he's going to check back a lot of turns. I think we just get owned by his entire range of Kx and Qx and some of his other mid-pairs. Even when we C/C and he checks the turn, we're going to face a lot of bad rivers where we aren't going to get any value.

I just C/F because our equity is below average and we're going to get owned when we're behind and a very light winner otherwise.