Other than Wil, Deuces, Proph, Johnny, NoQuarter and OMG Chez, Who are the Bad P/PU Posters? - Page 7 - Politics version 7.0 -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Well, Gamblor probably is a humane guy as long as it doesn't involve the Israeli government protecting itself from foreign people with different values.

consider yourself added. not humane. kill puppies.

Last edited by Gamblor; 05-24-2013 at 06:45 PM. Reason: if i say "arab puppies" is that against the rules?

05-24-2013 , 06:46 PM

#152

Gamblor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rjoefish

Easiest FYP ever.

im israeli, its what we do, amirite? also control media and banks and aipac and your gov't and chosen people. suck on that, goy.

Last edited by Gamblor; 05-24-2013 at 06:49 PM. Reason: testing the line. if im over, just delete post and i'll stop. if not, fu all, nazis

05-24-2013 , 06:48 PM

#153

Paul D

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Wouldn't you just want to sterilize our women so we can't breed instead of deleting all of our posts?

05-24-2013 , 06:50 PM

#154

Gamblor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul D

Wouldn't you just want to sterilize our women so we can't breed instead of deleting all of our posts?

your posts contain enough tone of insecurity that i don't think i need to bother. is your avatar a picture of you?

05-24-2013 , 06:55 PM

#155

SenorKeeed

mew mew mew

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 37,478

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverman

Somebody roll tape. I remember the thread but not the specifics, am quite confident in saying Gamblor made like a dozen absolutely awful posts in it and that the Phill cliff notes are more or less correct.

yupppppp

Quote:

They were doing this to new refugee immigrants, not ****ing just to black people. Jesus Christ. Its proactive acclimation to modern society. It's not a ****ing eugenics program, its temporary birth-control. It's part of the absorption program into society, so they have a fighting chance of surviving in modern-day Israel.

I lived a few minutes drive away from an Ethiopian community. You have no idea how little they know of modern society. They would toss garbage out the front door because they've never had non-organic garbage. They would just piss or take a **** everywhere. In the streets, wherever. They have a million kids because they don't know anything about birth control or economics because they just grew or found whatever food they needed and had nothing else.

Quote:

they originally did that and the women understood that. if you actually read other reports on this not written by Ha'aretz (which, again, is viewed as a scandal rag by most israelis), they originally gave the women pills and the women accepted them, but the women couldn't understand - yes, literally couldn't comprehend - the need to keep taking them regularly.

Quote:

ok, so you don't give them the shot. what do you do?

ghettoize them?

have laws that say they can't integrate with non-ethiopians?

send them back to the deserts?

Then IIRC he said some even more horrifically racist stuff that was deleted and got banned for a while.

Last edited by MrWookie; 06-20-2014 at 02:36 PM.

05-24-2013 , 06:56 PM

#156

Paul D

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Gamblor, I did not know text have tones. But do non-Israeli men end up like this guy?

05-24-2013 , 07:05 PM

#157

Gamblor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

yupppppp
Then IIRC he said some even more horrifically racist stuff that was deleted and got banned for a while.

I was not banned for anything in that thread, nor were any of my posts deleted. ******.

Instead of quoting a convenient, contextless selection, why didn't you link him to the thread?

******.

Gamblor Unchained!

05-24-2013 , 07:06 PM

#158

SenorKeeed

mew mew mew

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 37,478

U seem mad Gamblor

05-24-2013 , 07:11 PM

#159

Gamblor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

U seem mad Gamblor

Mad at all these bad posters more like

05-24-2013 , 07:46 PM

#160

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Let's go to the tape:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholar

Making birth control available is fine.

Injecting people with birth control against their express wishes, or without obtaining their informed consent, is wrong.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamblor

how do you get informed consent from someone that doesn't understand? Do you demand informed consent from a baby getting chicken pox shots?

you're right, but what you described is not exactly what was happening. there are several salient issues that you're not addressing. nobody forced them to come to israel, and are you suggesting that a million ethiopians understand what a vaccination is? or even what medical treatment is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

Adults underwent a medical procedure without their consent. It's like the definition of medical battery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamblor

stop putting words into my mouth. the "baby" analogized a person's current cognitive ability to comprehend taking medication on a regular basis, resulting from exactly zero understanding or contact with modern medicine. i mean zero - they have no concept of germs, birth control, doctors, medicine. they still have faith healers in their communities.

it's not that they don't have the biological capacity to think or understand or acclimatize or adapt to the modern world.

where did that line of thinking come from? why does everything come down to race if you don't like someone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

How complicated do you think it is to explain what birth control does? "This shot makes you not have a baby for a while. Do you want it?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamblor

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Here, it sure seems like you think your question cannot be answered by "talking to them" :

Quote:

Originally Posted by will1530

I would really love to LOL GAMBLOR here, but I'm going to need a cite that Israel was giving these shots without the patients knowledge or consent. Also, lol @ bringing anything Israel related into the LC thread. This is going to be a worse **** storm than guns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

I don't think I said anything that can be fairly construed as claiming that you view Ethiopians as racially inferior. You yourself said they were like babies in that they lacked the ability to make choices for themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamblor

i suppose its not an unreasonable leap of logic to make given what i said, but the mitigating circumstance is that these people don't speak hebrew, they come from a world that has no concept of modern medicine, and there's a million of them that need to get acclimated to a modern society of only 7 million in a cost-effective and (just as importantly) time-efficient way.

You can't ask every woman who literally cannot comprehend electricity let alone modern society.

And there's another general question: if you are building a welfare state where taxpayers will support all of the children of people who have no economic value to the state at the moment, does it have some right to take temporary measure to help acclimate and modernize these immigrants?

none at all?

some?

whatever it takes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorKeeed

Some measures? Sure. I'll draw the line well short of medical battery though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

You're still welcome to lol at Gamblor, imo. He's still going hard that Israel wouldn't need consent from these people, because apparently there is no amount of explanation you could do with these people that could possibly get them to understand. Might as just well give up and give them the shot anyway, amirite?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Then you don't give them the shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamblor

ok, so you don't give them the shot. what do you do?

ghettoize them?

have laws that say they can't integrate with non-ethiopians?

send them back to the deserts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sholar

Hire translators? Again, this doesn't seem that hard to understand.

Wow. You're losing it rather quickly here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamblor

really?

what's your proposed policy alternative?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

tom- Herd immunity is a valid public policy goal that cannot be achieved without some level of coercion. We picked school because it's a good gateway that hits enough people.

Gamblor, who I'm not familiar with as a poster but seems like a real treat, hasn't really identified why having temporarily sterile Ethiopians is a good thing. He's just mostly said a tremendous amount of horrifically racist ****.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

Like this post? Apparently if you think tricking people into getting birth control shots is a bad idea, you better have another way of preventing immigrants from breeding.

Gamblor, in no uncertain terms, defended the idea of forced birth control if the immigrants were incapable of understanding a simple explanation, regardless of whether or not this is what happened in Israel.

05-24-2013 , 07:47 PM

#161

sards

old hand

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,556

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Phill]

Have you only just taken Sards off ignore?

He is a huge douchebag misogynist of proportions that even OOT would ban him for hating women. And that is probably his most likable quality.

Even people I regularly butt heads with I reckon we could get along and have a good night of drinks and banter but Sards is one of the few 2+2ers I think is genuinely unlikable in all possible ways.

Come on bro, this is a bit harsh. I have some unpopular opinions, but I'm not a dick about it. I don't think that makes me a douchebag. And for the nth time, I don't hate women (or blacks, or gays, etc.)

05-24-2013 , 07:58 PM

#162

diebitter

Grotesquely Handsome

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 65,737

05-24-2013 , 08:01 PM

#163

74Offsuit

old hand

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,383

Those Gamblor posts are really off the chain, that's some shameful schizz right there.

05-24-2013 , 08:05 PM

#164

Omar Comin

fantasy failure

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 27,348

So Gamblor is basically a piece of ****.

05-24-2013 , 08:16 PM

#165

Trolly McTrollson

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"Literally cannot comprehend electricity"

05-24-2013 , 08:54 PM

#166

Gamblor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Omar Comin

So Gamblor is basically a piece of ****.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=121

Quote:

I am posting this to make my position completely unambiguous on the birth control issue that's blown up into accusations of racism and other such nonsense.

The people in discussion are these: Falash Mura.

What I think
Any post suggesting that what I’ve written or my personal views and attitudes conflict with any of the following statements is simply fantasy. Nothing I’ve actually written has even addressed the issue of race; argument otherwise is simply a matter of manipulating context or filling in gaps with what appears to be wishful thinking on the part of posters who are reading between the lines. The following is plainly obvious:

All citizens of Israel are nothing less than full citizens of Israel and should be treated equally under the law. Discrimination against a citizen for reasons of race or country of origin are unacceptable.
Immigrants to Israel should be as quickly and seamlessly absorbed and integrated into Israeli society as equals, with as minimal intrusion on their rights and freedoms as possible, in order that they can live an integrated life with all the rights, freedoms, and opportunities afforded to all Israelis.
Human personality traits are independent of biological race. Any behaviour I have attributed to Ethiopian immigrant communities, like all groups of people thrown into unfamiliar cultures, can be attributed entirely to their historical customs, society, and culture, and a lack of familiarity with the customs, culture and society into which they've immigrated.
Any generalized statements are generalizations and trends, and not automatically attributable to the whole. Each person is an individual, with their own capabilities and attitudes.

Again, the above statements are foundational to my opinions and world view. Any attempt going forward to interpret my opinions as conflicting with them is simply malicious interpretation, straw man, or otherwise general intellectual dishonesty.

Further, any suggestion that I was “banned” for racism is simply incorrect – I was banned for a personal attack on [Phill], who made a typically ignorant accusation that there was racist motivation behind anything I’ve said ITT. I (correctly, imo) called him an idiot and explicitly stated that I knew a ban was going to result from that.

The issue itself
With respect to actions of the JDC (the government of Israel isn't actually involved in this program, not that such inconvenient facts matter to the ignorant Israel-bashers ITT), my arguments are based on the following interpretation of the facts, none of which is contradicted in the facts actually contained in the Ha’aretz article:

A hundred thousand or so immigrants (I had overestimated it in the previous posts) from Ethiopia have immigrated to Israel in the last few decades. Nearly all of them lived a rural, at times nomadic, existence and have virtually no experience with modern medicine, and have lived a sustenance lifestyle for generations. The lifestyle and culture of the Falash Mura and Beta Israel in certain ways conflicts with a modern urban society and organized welfare state and it is a difficult, arduous task to acclimatize and integrate them into society.

In order to reduce the effect of their previous lifestyles on their opportunities in modern Israel, Israeli resources, and their absorption into Israeli society, women were provided birth control medication. They were explained the nature of the medication they were given. The medication required regular ingestion, and the policy was established and accepted by the leaders of the communities that were immigrating.

There were failures in the programs related to an inability of the people given the medication to appreciate the need to keep taking the pills. The solution to that problem was that they were given injections of a longer-term birth control that vast, vast majority of the immigrants were fully aware of, and no force or dishonesty was used to procure consent. Some weren’t aware and needed to be incentivized or otherwise pushed into taking the medications. They either didn't understand fully or they thought they understood at the time of the treatment.

I supported, in principle (as evidenced by the comparison links to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation's African birth control programs that I provided at the start of my OP), was of the policy to provide the treatments to women and to establish the birth control program. I did not and would not defend forcing women to take the treatments against their will, or with consent that was obtained fraudulently.

The Ha'aretz article, as usual for their brand of pseudo-journalism, is simply a mashup of editorial quotes, speculation, and accusations by third parties. The article's only actual fact-based evidence is that the Ministry of Health has written a letter, an excerpt of which says that doctors should “not to renew prescriptions for Depo Provera for women of Ethiopian origin if for any reason there is concern that they might not understand the ramifications of the treatment”. No evidence exists that there was a deliberate policy to sterilize these women, certainly nothing on the part of the Israeli government (who again, was uninvolved in the matter entirely), and it pure speculative assumption by parties quoted in the article that there was any forcing the treatments or otherwise coercing these women. Again, the truth never gets in the way of a good Israel-bashing headline. Again: the government of Israel is not even involved, but the usual gang of haters show their ignorance by continuing to just say "Israel" because, hey, we hate Israel, right?

Further, the JDC has issued a categorical denial of the accusations.

Once more, with feeling:
Any post suggesting that what I’ve written or my personal views and attitudes conflict with any of the following statements is simply fantasy. On the face of it, nothing I’ve written has even addressed the issue of race; argument otherwise is simply a matter of manipulating context or filling in gaps with what appears to be wishful thinking on the part of posters who are reading between the lines I've written. The following is plainly obvious:

All citizens of Israel are nothing less than full citizens of Israel and should be treated equally under the law. Discrimination against a citizen for reasons of race or country of origin are unacceptable.
Immigrants to Israel should be as quickly and seamlessly absorbed and integrated into Israeli society as equals, with as minimal intrusion on their rights and freedoms as possible, in order that they can live an integrated life with all the rights, freedoms, and opportunities afforded to all Israelis.
Human personality traits are independent of biological race. Any behaviour I have attributed to Ethiopian immigrant communities, like all groups of people thrown into unfamiliar cultures, can be attributed entirely to their historical customs, society, and culture, and a lack of familiarity with the customs, culture and society into which they've immigrated.
Any generalized statements are generalizations and trends, and not automatically attributable to the whole. Each person is an individual, with their own capabilities and attitudes.

Again, the above four statements are foundational to my opinions and world view. Attempts, going forward, to make any logical leap that my opinions conflict with them is simply bull****.

But lets be real. The pack of wolves here is much more entertained by conflict and "winning" an argument regardless of reality. So lets - for fun - see how many posters (I know you will, Bill Haywood!) will keep pressing the issue with lies about what I’ve said.

confirmed ****.

05-24-2013 , 09:03 PM

#167

SenorKeeed

mew mew mew

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 37,478

Gamblor,

How has Israel worked to overcome the problem of Ethiopians just defacating in the streets, living rooms, post offices, department stores, etc? I hear they just go wherever, right?

05-24-2013 , 09:12 PM

#168

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Gamblor,

I actually read your whole TL;DR word vomit. At no point did you repudiate your stated position that immigrants who cannot comprehend the effects of a birth control shot should be given that shot anyway. You merely stated that Israel had not done that. You included some mealy-mouthed bull**** about equality, but you didn't even have the balls to say, "OK guys, I was wrong. Giving birth control shots to people who cannot give informed consent would actually be morally bankrupt." Furthermore, you did not repudiate your stated position that immigrants need to be restricted from breeding as a matter of public policy. So yes, you're a confirmed piece of ****.

05-24-2013 , 09:15 PM

#169

Riverman

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Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 73,135

loooooooooooooooooooooolll

gamblorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

"The internet is written in ink."

-Erica Albrecht

05-24-2013 , 09:28 PM

#170

Gamblor

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Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 14,746

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=253

Quote:

That's fine, you can disagree with me about the nature of informed consent in a foreign environment but that doesn't mean I'm a racist, it doesn't mean I look down on someone because of a drastic change in their circumstances, and it doesn't mean I support forced or coerced sterilization, accusations of which you (and half of 2p2) made against me and which is what started this trainwreck.

05-24-2013 , 09:36 PM

#171

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Gamblor,

You can repeat yourself. I'll repeat myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Giving shots to people who don't understand them, even if you tried to explain it to them and they still don't get it, is not "disagreement about the nature of informed consent." It's violation of informed consent, and it abjectly deplorable.

05-24-2013 , 09:40 PM

#172

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Immigrants to Israel should be as quickly and seamlessly absorbed and integrated into Israeli society as equals, with as minimal intrusion on their rights and freedoms as possible, in order that they can live an integrated life with all the rights, freedoms, and opportunities afforded to all Israelis.

See, in that self-aggrandizing word vomit of yours? That, right there, is leaving the door open for giving birth control to the stupid ones who don't understand what's best for them. Go **** yourself.

05-24-2013 , 09:49 PM

#173

Gizmo

Hottest Khaleesi

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 11,951

I feel like this is appropriate here. Don't ask me why.

05-24-2013 , 09:50 PM

#174

Gamblor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

You're easily the biggest pos mod there is. But for the record, forcing someone to take birth control is so obviously heinous I didn't think it needed to be said. So I'm saying it.

Although, I suppose in the event your family was forced to, maybe it wouldnt be such a bad idea after all.