how do you get informed consent from someone that doesn't understand? Do you demand informed consent from a baby getting chicken pox shots?

you're right, but what you described is not exactly what was happening. there are several salient issues that you're not addressing. nobody forced them to come to israel, and are you suggesting that a million ethiopians understand what a vaccination is? or even what medical treatment is?

Adults underwent a medical procedure without their consent. It's like the definition of medical battery.

nobody was sterilized, so i don't know why you keep making **** up.

Perhaps arguing that Ethiopians don't deserve rights because they lack the mental capacity to understand and use them is not the best tack for you to be taking here. Just a thought.

stop putting words into my mouth. the "baby" analogized a person's current cognitive ability to comprehend taking medication on a regular basis, resulting from exactly zero understanding or contact with modern medicine. i mean zero - they have no concept of germs, birth control, doctors, medicine. they still have faith healers in their communities.

it's not that they don't have the biological capacity to think or understand or acclimatize or adapt to the modern world.

where did that line of thinking come from? why does everything come down to race if you don't like someone?

How complicated do you think it is to explain what birth control does? "This shot makes you not have a baby for a while. Do you want it?"

Is your claim that these women wouldn't have understood the idea of "would you like a shot that will prevent you from getting pregnant for the next three months?"

Bob, these animals are ****ting in the street, there's no way they can understand that sort of question

they originally did that and the women understood that. if you actually read other reports on this not written by Ha'aretz (which, again, is viewed as a scandal rag by most israelis), they originally gave the women pills and the women accepted them, but the women couldn't understand - yes, literally couldn't comprehend - the need to keep taking them regularly.

Here, it sure seems like you think your question cannot be answered by "talking to them" :

Devils advocate but aren't many in this forum in favour of mandatory vaccination?

I'm pretty sure the US has done worse that this (maybe not necessarily to immigrants but to people abroad). But I don't see how this is an excuse at all. I mean, comparisons to Nazi Germany are not that far away. Defending this **** is is beyond the pale.

I'm in favor of requiring children who want to attend a school to be vaccinated, not quite the same thing and that's generally how it's treated in the US iirc.

I would really love to LOL GAMBLOR here, but I'm going to need a cite that Israel was giving these shots without the patients knowledge or consent. Also, lol @ bringing anything Israel related into the LC thread. This is going to be a worse **** storm than guns.

I don't think I said anything that can be fairly construed as claiming that you view Ethiopians as racially inferior. You yourself said they were like babies in that they lacked the ability to make choices for themselves.

i suppose its not an unreasonable leap of logic to make given what i said, but the mitigating circumstance is that these people don't speak hebrew, they come from a world that has no concept of modern medicine, and there's a million of them that need to get acclimated to a modern society of only 7 million in a cost-effective and (just as importantly) time-efficient way.

You can't ask every woman who literally cannot comprehend electricity let alone modern society.

And there's another general question: if you are building a welfare state where taxpayers will support all of the children of people who have no economic value to the state at the moment, does it have some right to take temporary measure to help acclimate and modernize these immigrants?

none at all?

some?

whatever it takes?

Some measures? Sure. I'll draw the line well short of medical battery though.

You're still welcome to lol at Gamblor, imo. He's still going hard that Israel wouldn't need consent from these people, because apparently there is no amount of explanation you could do with these people that could possibly get them to understand. Might as just well give up and give them the shot anyway, amirite?

They're stealing our money! Measures have to be taken to make sure they don't reproduce!

Then you don't give them the shot.

you post this on ****in Holocaust Memorial Day no less. This is ridiculous.

The nazi eugenics program was part of a comprehensive program to genocide. it was done in conjunction with nuremburg laws, gas chambers, experiments.

the government is not killing ethiopians, its not preventing them from doing business (in fact, its trying to encourage it), its not hauling them to gas chambers. its actively trying to help them be self-sustaining economically and culturally.

this was temporary, not permanent. and the shots were only after the women agreed to but couldn't maintain the regular pill program. its not eugenics. jesus.

Oh, yeah, just saw his last post.
Hey GAAAAAAAAAAAAMBLOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRR, reproductive rights are universal and it is a crime against humanity to involuntarily sterilize groups of people, even if its only temporary and for their own good (IYO). I do understand that you have a rather blase attitude towards such things, though.

I haven't seen anything that says Israel has involuntarily given depo shots to immigrants, but the fact that you are arguing that they should be able to is disgusting.

ok, so you don't give them the shot. what do you do?

ghettoize them?

have laws that say they can't integrate with non-ethiopians?

send them back to the deserts?

WTF does forced temporary sterilisation do to acclimate and modernise people to society?

Also outside of one or two European countries in the mid 1940s it is generally accepted that it is not moral to give medical treatment to people against their ability to comprehend it no matter how much you look down on them or no matter how much better for your society it is if you think they should undertake such a solution.

Hire translators? Again, this doesn't seem that hard to understand.

Wow. You're losing it rather quickly here.