Nah- I don't actually take it personally or anything. If you're lucky enough to have avoided Foldn, more props too you.

sputnik,

Are you trying to make the case I was banned from OOT or something. Do you really want to go out like the dude who claimed Fly wasn't white?

This isn't the first time Fly's race has been questioned. TBH, he's probably White, but it's not as if he doesn't have a motive to lie. Like, the guy has been getting off on labeling white people racists around these parts for a ****ing decade. Him being White neutralizes some obvious potential counters.

This is just doubling down on ignorance. Fly pretends to be white when insulting racists so that when people say "You're just calling us racists because you're black" he can be all LOL NOPE?

Fly's race gets questioned by simple minded ****sticks who don't understand how anybody could care about anything other than themselves. I hope you get one of that club's most stylish jackets.

Him relentlessly criticizing majority culture as a member of said culture carries much, much more weight than if he were, say, black. At least it does in the mind of many of those he targets. It's very not surprising that you don't get this.

No, I get the argument you're making. It's just incredibly ****ing stupid.

It's not an argument Dids, stupid or otherwise. I'm #dudeliterally just relaying facts for you.

Fly gets off by IDing signs of racism and loosing hell on the perps. White people getting called out for racist speech by other white people will be far more influential/impactful than if they're called out by a minority. This is in part what makes "allies" so powerful in social change movements.

Wow you are awful.

It is amazing to think that way let alone say it.

It is basically the equivalent thinking as "Who does this MLK ****** think he is criticizing us whites? Man should know his place. "

Actually, it's quite the opposite.

Have you seen how many people on here flip out and start throwing around "Social Justice Warrior" and "White Knight" as insults if you deign to defend minorities or women when you are neither?

I swear, it's like you're #dudebitterly a newborn child every day: you seem to forget that the past has actually happened.

No, a more apt analogy would be a white guy saying something racist about MLK and then getting called out on it by an acquaintance. If you think the race of the acquaintance is meaningless IRT how the message is received then I suggest you read up on the subject.

Let's just be direct and refrain from anecdotal evidence in response if you don't mind, as I'm about to walk into work.

White guy says something racist about a black guy. Acquaintance calls him out. All else being equal, if the acquaintance is also white, do you think this will make the "call out" more or less impactful?

LOL

You don't want to use actual evidence that has happened here and happens here on a daily basis, you want to use the completely fabricated, made up evidence that hasn't happened anywhere but your own head.

You're a slightly bigger idiot than I originally thought.

No, DIB, you literally just said above that a white guy criticizing racism against blacks carries "much, much more weight" than if a black guy does.

And then went on to act incredulous that this isn't obvious to everyone.

You are really ****ed up morally and intellectually.

How about you answer the question?
Person A is a white guy saying racist ****.

Person B, an acquaintance, calls him out.

You think Person B's race is irrelevant when considering the impact of Person B's message?

YES, you ****ing moron. Holy ****.

The answer is you're an idiot if you prefer to ignore reality in favor of the hypothetical you've concocted solely in your head.

DiB putting in the work to win this.

You wanna think about it, study up and perhaps take at least a more tentative line? Because you're wrong.

What kind of faux-scientist says we have to ignore what we observe in the world and instead focus only on what our imaginations come up with?

To support DIBs - I think you can't ignore the fact that with a lot of white people (since we acknowledge a lot of people are either outright racist or suffer from unacknowledged biases) would find the argument stronger from a white person since they would assume that a black person making the argument might be saying so out of racial animus. Just like in the Ferguson thread how some people were ready to discard the witnesses against Officer Wilson but were ready to accept the witness statements of the two white construction workers who said the same thing. Even the media seemed to place more value on the the 2 white witnesses.

Of course the skin color of the person making an argument shouldn't matter. But that would be ignoring the practical reality that our culture suffers from systematic racism.

so you're arguing not that it carries more weight because of the different or same races, but because the first person is racist?

Yes, I don't think anybody is suggesting that it carries more weight in any absolute sense, just that it would be perceived as more significant by a person who made the racist statements to begin with.

There's a difference between what I think #dudebitterly was arguing, that the white person would see it merely as self-interest, and the idea that he'll just not weight anything from a black person as highly as a white person.

The claim was that Fly would pretend he's white because a racist poster online spewing racism would more likely acknowledge his error and back off than if Fly was black. This seems highly dubious. I think a racist spewing racist remarks would be much more likely to be open with these remarks among critics from the same race, than over objections raised from the very race he is targeting with his comments. One, it's just uncomfortable to all if somebody was mocking blacks in front of blacks who were protesting it, and highly likely to lead to a ban sooner. And two, the dismissal of criticism from a white guy online happens all the time, as others have said about white knighting--"oh, those pinko liberals" or any of a thousand similar variations. Actually, BruceZ responded in this very manner to criticism of his posts, so this is hardly a fantastic reach!

But what makes DIB's remarks especially atrocious are not just his intellectual leap. Rather, it is that these possibilities were completely beyond the realm of his thinking. It was just so, so obvious to him that EVERYONE would also see that Fly would be taken more seriously by his targets (or even audience here, as we're talking about exchanges in the forum not by PM) if he was white not black. I think his quick dismissal of other possibilities reveals a high likelihood that he shares these views to some degree. Especially when one factors (slightly) his positions in other threads regarding treatment of women. There is a recurring theme.

Just a quick post since I'm hopping in and out. Without a heck of a lot of thought into why I'm thinking this as I have to be brief - A lot of people (who are being criticized by fly) have made it clear they thought he was black. I have always assumed this is a sign of some kind of biase - where white people (esp. if they're racist) are more prone to believe someone so invested in racism would have to be black.

And if a racist is rational at all, I still contend that they'll be more thoughtful about criticism from a white guy then a black guy -- after all, they're already biased against blacks.

I would need more time to fully digest the rest but at the moment I'm about to do a work meeting.

That's not what I'm saying.

Case and point: