Usually you make good poasts. But this is pretty much semantikes to claim Americans cannot be poor because other nations' standards of living.

I'm a Keynesian. Not an ACist. However, Libertarians and ACists with some knowledge of economics do make arguments that have kernels of truth (at least in theory). To just lol at them because you disagree with their theories is pretty bad.

Neither absolutists or relativists are entirely correct in the debate over what is poverty. So there, no need to keep debating past each other on this as you will never meet in anything like the middle and both sides know exactly why the other side think the way they do.

Could you elaborate more on why you're so worried about arguing from the US perspective? And why you think its reasonable to disregard the types of poverty that exist in many 3rd world countries?

I don't think there's anybody lol'ing at them because we disagree with their theories.

Most of us are lol'ing at the extreme logic fails exercised by the hardcore ACists. And I'm lol'ing at Lirva in particular because he's so adamant about his reasons for hating "Statism" but he can't see how most/all of those reasons still apply with his version of ACLand.

Just saw an episode of Vice which featured street battles in Athens between Anarchists and Fascists. Two questions:


1) Would any of the self-proclaimed Anarchists on this forum join such battles, even with the risk of serious physical harm?

2) Why the Fascists? Why aren't the Anarchists battling the Communists? Wouldn't they be diametrically opposed? Instead it appears that the Anarchists and Communists are actually allies, which makes no sense at all to me.

As I understand it:

Anarchists and communists are very similar in ideology and have a lot of overlap, its not really about Mao or Stalin creating a leadership cult more closely aligned to fascists than what modern communists believe in. Plus it is worth noting that anarcho communism is a real thing.

Fascists are like their own thing, they believe in a strong state, lots of rules and they will invariably be racist or prejudiced in a way that anarchists generally arent given they are all about individual empowerment and where the communism comes in they consider a communal system the best way to have the individual and the society coexist in harmony.

But Communist and Anarchist ideology really don't have a lot of overlap.


My guess is the similarity lies with the people drawn to them, not to the ideologies themselves. In both cases, they draw people who are really really pissed off at the status quo and willing to embrace an extremist ideology. In both cases, I'd dare to say, the people embracing those ideologies haven't really thought out how things would actually work under those systems beyond "they'd be different than they are now."

Fascism seems obsessed with a past that never really existed instead of a future that never will, so it is going to seem like a more extreme version of the status quo rather than a total break from it.

So, Lirva punked out and we all win this thread right?

The Market has spoken.

wow I am really sad I decided to peek into PU.

hey kerowo: did you know that RIGHT NOW people pay MORE than the minimum wage for labor (SEVERAL TIMES in many cases)? I mean how dumb are those guys, amirite? There is NOTHING that legally stops them from paying less, yet for some inexplicable reason, they pay more than the government makes them. Many of them even do things like AIR CONDITION their workplaces and provide FREE COFFEE (what a bunch of freeloading workers!), they're just throwing money away!!

Your argument is basically that all these dumb guys will suddenly get a lot smarter if the government disappears.

Fantastic thought process there.

Your counter dumb argument is that there will be no change in working conditions if OSHA suddenly doesn't exist and their aren't any other government agencies looking after Labor? You don't expect all of the companies in one business to get together and set wages for the industry? Like Google and Apple did, or hospitals in Detroit? I still maintain that the only thing preventing big business from treating their employees horribly is the threat of law, with no law what is going to stop them?

Dude

there is, currently, right now, as we speak, in the real world, nothing that legally prevents my employer from paying me minimum wage. There is nothing that prevents them from turning off the air conditioner. I mean this is in the REAL WORLD not some made up fantasy world in your head.

And yet, they DO pay more than the government makes them and they DO supply better working conditions. And I'm not even in a union!

youcantexplainthat.jpg

MissileDog is a scared little bitch with his tail betwen his legs for not starting a thread on Anarhism.

Actually, I was planning on doing a "Ask me anything about ACism/ASism" thread in July.

But even if what you say is true... how is that in any way related to you abandoning both the "Anarchy!" thread here, and the "Anarchy! With you host LirvA" thread over in politards?

That's what I just don't get... why this bizarre infatuation regarding me. Do you really have a 'man-crush' on me? Case in point was the thread you started last year entitled: Ask MissleDog and ILikePoker (and others) anything about Anarcho-Syndicalism. Which went like this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LirvA

I'll start. Seeing as how an AS society has no government, how are things like criminal prosecution and personal defense handled?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Haywood

That's a question people should have stopped asking in the 1930s.

The melting away of the state is a distant dream. All you need to know today is that independent action by the proletariat, against both state and private tyranny, is absolutely necessary. Organization and solidarity should be used to balance power downward.

I like Chomsky's definition of contemporary anarchism. It is the demand that centralization never be given the benefit of the doubt, it must always be justified. The default is freedom, and the giving up of privileges by individuals needs elaborate reasons by state and private authority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 74offsuit

I'm not sure you will get anywhere with these questions. As I understand it AS'ism is a 'bottom up' rather than a 'top down' philosophy. There is no ideal model of a society to work towards, and such a model would be irrelevant since an anarchist society is a very long way away and would have radically different culture, technology would be more advanced, etc.

Instead, the focus is on organizing at a small scale, like forming a union, or a small business based on anarchist principles. A quote I rather liked was 'building a new world inside the shell of the old'.

The Anarchist FAQ has tons of information for those that are interested.

Both Bill Haywood and 74offsuit gave relevant responses to your OP. Why did you refuse to engage them in conversation? That's what I just don't get... why this bizarre infatuation regarding me. Do you really have a 'man-crush' on me ??

I've been busy dumb ass, start the thread.

Dude, that was last year... were you busy then?. You didn't respond to Bill Heywood or 74offsuit... instead you kept complaining about me, only me. Why do you act out this way?

Why don't you start your own thread instead? Title it something like "LirvA learns about real world anarchism (no libertarian type crapola, please)". Once again... there are plenty of other peeps ITF that can help you learn... what is your fixation about me, only me ??

lol

Dude,

There are companies right now trying to keep wages artificially low and are being prevented by legal action. When there is no longer the threat of legal action what happens?

nothinggood.jpg

Artificially? You might want to check your dictionary.

What would you call it when companies collude to keep wages low?

Regardless, you still haven't explained why anyone currently makes more than the legal minimum.

You're kind of all over the place. What collision are you talking about?

Are you also upset when people collude to keep wages (artificially) high?

Probably market forces that are definitely shaped by the current legal environment, which won't be in place in ACland, so I don't care that much about it really.

No, I'm saying the same thing I've been saying. Wages are going to be crap in ACland because there is no reason not to. The current collusion I'm talking about is when two or more companies get together, like Apple and Google, and say "hey, if you don't poach our guys we won't poach your guys and we won't have to bid up their salaries to keep them." I'm not overly concerned about collusion to keep wages high because I assume you're talking about organized labor which won't exist in ACland.

I am unsure of your fixation with the "wages is crap in ACland". In theory, prices of goods would be much lower. So your purchasing power perhaps would be better off in that theoretical world.

Although I still would like to know how the **** other things would work in ACland.

I don't really think it will just be wages, I imagine it will be all the worst parts of Wal Mart taken to the extreme.

pvn knows very well that for some wages, purchasing power and quality of living will drop, likely dramatically. That is why he is dodging the question.

However wages and purchasing power would probably increase for the majority, certainly for some. Basically off the back of the previous paragraph alone before getting into anything more complex.