Good but then I'm not sure what you think I should be doing with regard to the Fly's and Let's Gambol's posts? You've suggested that I should stand up to that side but I still don't know what you think that entails, and whatever it entails I don't think it preferable to ignoring it.

Here I think you have a point and I also think MrWookie's example of tone policing flawed, there is room for substantial disagreement on using the word ****** just as there is on others pejorative's that reflect discriminatory views on members of marginalised communities but whether someone plays nice on the internet is one of my less pressing concerns and there are times when tone indicates that scope for substantive disagreement is limited, you can't have a grown up discussion with someone that doesn't want one. Nor are people obliged to have on.

But you've suggested that you find it hard to take me seriously because I don't take them seriously enough to respond, to be clear joining in with established practice isn't arrogant, going to a forum and decrying their practice maybe. Also as someone who only really paid these forums any notice recently if I don't like how they do their thing I can go elsewhere, I have no investment in the forum, it doesn't really matter.

I take your point on just ignoring them. Don't you accept though that when pointing out where you think one side is at fault in a two sided conflict then it's a difficulty when you don't feel able to point out where you think the other side is wrong? That caused me a problem with taking you seriously even though I was trying hard to and in fact do take you seriously.

Appreciate you saying so. Tone policing is a complex subject but it's always been largely a side-show.

I'm not suggesting anyone is obliged to have a conversation with anyone. The question is more whether we are obliged not to have a conversation with some people - the answer is yes and wookie bans those people (I'm unaware of having any disagreement with any such bans) but otherwise the answer is no and sometimes that means trying to explain to newbies some of the weird language used as if it's normal.



That was my approach long ago although I did feel I had some 'investment'. The Bruce fiasco changed that for two reasons. Firstly as I said at the time I think a good point was made and we were wrong in the way we discussed politics in SMP, we had forgotten it was a public forum. Secondly the main person who generated the discussion and with who I mostly argued politics against no longer wants to be at 2+2 - without him this is where the political action is. Thirdly stubborn may be a better word than arrogant.

One does not accrue 10's of 1000's of posts across various internet forums by not pointing out where I think people are wrong. I have never not felt able to I have merely chosen what parts of the discussion to engage.

We get to choose what discussions we enter and when to leave unless that is forced upon us. I don't think there are many newbies joining 2p2 for the politics forum and if people are really interested in politics there's enough choices elsewhere if the manner here isn't particularly welcoming, or just not care and carry on regardless.

It can be both stubborn and arrogant.

WTF ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING JESUS CHRIST

That's one of those questions that if you have to ask you're probably too stupid to understand the answer but in case I am posting **** in a forum created in order that people can post ****. You?

lol too stupid. i already knew chez's only purpose for being here was because of his sad about bruce z, you're the one doing this dolty back and forth in an effort to uncover some great truth or make chez less sad (lol).

like, what makes you care so much? is there some deep meaning angle to this saga that hasn't been explored/discovered yet?

Chez, are you saying the reason you guys are here is because SMP dried up and is no longer interesting for you?

Why does that bother you?

What makes you think I care that much? This is merely **** I am doing while I should be doing something else, like most of the **** posted on the internet.

it doesn't. the caps in my first post this morning weren't meant to express frustration or anger, more like ridicule and lolz

you post like you're on a humanitarian mission to bridge the gap between politics posters and chezlaw. it's pretty dumb, but it's your time to waste as you please.

Chez pretending hasn't been whining about the moderating for six months is kind of cute though.

it is and your style of "cat pawing at mouse" is condescending and humorous enough to make me not unsubscribe to this thread, fwiw

I post for my benefit no one else's; not Chez's not PU or Politics not yours, so I don't really care what your caps expresses, as mentioned up thread I have 10,000's of posts on the internet I am perfectly capable of choosing how to waste my time.

Hopefully we have moved on from this. Choosing (for whatever reason) to only address one side of the problem can make it hard to take seriously - not impossible but hard.

I'm not sure how important this point is. There were regulars who rarely post here any more and newbies and irregulars stray in from time to time as well as old time 2+2ers. It's not a private club.


Sure and humble as well and a bit of an arse.

Lol, so suddenly there is nobody on 2+2 to help you with your math homework. I believe this may be your chickens coming home to roost.

I don't know which guys you mean and I don't speak for them. Speaking for myself most of my activity for a while has been discussing politics. Bruce played a huge role in those threads both for his own contribution and because people such as DS would get involved.

Did you ask your maths problem in the homework thread? pretty sure they would help you.

Nice use of CAPS, "honestly" and "literally."

You literally have NO IDEA how much I am enjoying this.

Okay can I ask you what you want?

You're right Politics is not a private club just as SMP isn't and regs move on and some people stumble across a forum and find value in it others don't and stumble elsewhere. And so what, it doesn't mean the forum is necessarily worse than before but even if that were so it doesn't mean we can say anything to improve it.

So instead I talk **** here and talk less **** where I feel it's appropriate.

It's a weird question. I'm not sure I want anything in particular beyond what anyone wants from discussing politics. That's of value in itself imo.

I believe more constructive politics is far better for the vulnerable (and better for people in general)) than divisive politics (which is nothing like saying I don't see the value in anger and rioting) so I argue for that in much the same way I argue for major changes in the policing of Ferguson. I don't expect to have much of an impact anymore than nearly everybody else does but that's exactly how it should be.

I wanted something different from the Bruce fiasco of course but that's over. I particularly want to see a resumption of political discussion including DS and Bruce but I wont hold my breath

I think the first sentence is the thing to bear in mind.

The second paragraph is where I think you are mistaken, I don't think whether this forum does politics constructively or not is of any relevance, it is what is. I don't think either Bruce or DS has much to add by way of constructive discussion, certainly none I've noticed.

Nitpicking wistfully with Jibs about the definition of institutional racism and why it doesn't exist for a hundred posts...constructive politics!

Tone policing and scolding posters for riling up the aggressive negroes in Ferguson with a post six months in the future...constructive politics!

Acting as counsel to try and make sure that Bruce feels he is in the judgment free circle of trust so he can speculate about why slavery might not be a good life for you and me, but was for the lucky lottery winners in Africa...constructive politics!

Trolling the forum by constantly using the word fiasco and pointedly and exaggeratedly giving racist commentary the benefit of the doubt totally because you are here to talk politics and not because you are trying to make a point about Bruce because you think everyone here is an idiot....constructive politics!

Whining about how other people keep bringing up Bruce when every Bruce related thread has chez a top two poster by volume....constructive politics!

yea def need to get DS and bruce back on the regular, politics forum needs more vigorous discussion about cockroaches, slave rape, and corpse sexing

Why are you here, chez? You don't want to talk politics, you don't even want to do math.

That's something we disagree on. It's slow and it's subtle but the impact is real. It can appear not to matter at all just like voting can often appear not to matter but it's really a reaction to the fact it doesn't matter as much as people want it to or that it doesn't produce change as fast as they want (or they they don't individually matter to the whole as much as they feel they should).

Really? Whatever, they have both made me think a lot over the years and I appreciate it.