$10 2.5k is 7 hrs in and is 6 handed, prob not gonna last 10.5 hrs, quit picking outliers

And, you think a small tournament like that is acceptable at 8-9 hours?

I don't.... $3 rebuy in 2010 on Pokerstars lasted 8-9 hours and that had 5,000 players.

well its 337 people just like a 30 10k would be, unless u mean the buyin. 690 to first could be a lot to some people, mostly the ppl playing a $10 mtt, why shouldnt they get the same structure as a 109

They should get the same structure....just don't expect the player pool to increase, though.

sounds good, maybe you should consider that your point of view isnt necessarily the same as others or whats best. i appreciate your enthusiasm tho. i think what you're looking for is more turbos in their schedule and/or alternating structures. pstars changes blind level length on the 3r 5r 11r every other day, maybe thats something you'd like.

Turbos?

I already said what I'm looking for....same $10,000 guarantees with a 10-12 min level structure. Since when are 10-12 minute levels considered "turbos?" You can keep the same 15 minute $10K guarantees...just add events to the schedule with the same $10K guarantee, same buy ins, and 10-12 minute levels.

Are you opposed to adding more events of equal size to the schedule? It's more opportunities for you to win money while keeping the same precious 15 minute events that you love so much.


Yea, that's cool. But, I don't see the necessity for alternating days. Just add more events each day with different structures that cater to a variety of players.

Like CmonSon said....you can have the Big 10 (10-12 minute structures) and the DEEP 10 (deeper stacks with 15 minute structures)...he even came up with the perfect name for it and everything.

why not have tournaments of both structures. win-win-win

I thought that I had said my piece, but since you're claiming,

"Nobody likes the structures on WPN."

I have to call you on that. I and several others (including one player a few posts after yours) play on WPN because of the long structures, have said that they look for good, deep, long structures, and some of you seem unable to beleive that not all of us agree with you.

When I say that I want to play as deep as possible, I always think I've cast my vote and I'm done with it, then someone comes on and says that everyone wants the faster structures. It's not true. Enough of us have said so that you're way out of line to say that everyone wants a faster structure.

I don't know what percentage agree with me. It might be 5% or 20%. I do know that some pro multitablers check all of the sites and choose the ones with the best structures or prize pools, even if some of those tournaments are way below their usual buy-in level. Recently, Johnathan Little was multitabling $100 and up online tournaments, but he also played an $11 Pokerstars tournament with a huge player and prize pool, and he cashed second for $14,000 (I think that's the right number, it was five figures). He even made a coaching video that replays parts of that tournament.

I'm fine with 15 (or more) minute blinds, and I'm fine with several hours of late registration. If someone is stupid enough to start a tournament so late that he comes in with an M of 3, I plan to pick up some of that dead money. Villian will be desperate to get it in quickly and I'll have great odds to call against his range while risking a negligible amount of my stack.

When I was a recreational player who had just discovered 2+2 a few months ago (I think it was 2007) I cashed 7th in a $3.30 4,200-player tournament for $384 (116 buy-ins.) Being profitable in MTTs is all about a few big cashes, not regular cashes in 50-200 player tournaments on ACR. That is when I first realized how important it is to have deep tournaments with large player pools.

That's where the money is for serious players. Chris Ferguson played on a season on the WPT where he only cashed twice--but they were both final tables, probably worth somewhere around $1 million total. That's how you succeed at MTTs, you take chances and push very small edges to go very deep in that big tournament that could by itself be a big percentage of your annual profit.

It's extremely difficult to make any money in small MTTs where first place might be 20 buy-ins or less.

You want a faster structure and I don't. We are both entitled to our opinions, but please, all of you who think that tournaments should end in something like four hours, don't say that it's what everyone wants, or that it's why everyone chooses not to play on WPN. It's not true.

I feel I have to state my opinion on this topic. I played "professionally" for 3 years and have had a full time job ever since 3 months after black Friday. The live poker grind wasn't for me. I was recently told about America's Cardroom because of this Million tourney. I bit, made a deposit. What a disaster that was, but anyway...

Now to the point. I hate these structures. Taking 4-5 hours to get to the money???? Are you serious??? I live in Florida. After playing bubbling the 2PM around 6PM, there was no way I was playing 50k at 7PM. I have to work at 9AM (later than anyone else i know). I am not staying up until 3AM to get 7th place. If I get top 3, it's obviously worth it, but c'mon.

And yes, you can forget me grinding on week nights. Oh, and I promise I would if there were tournaments that started between 6-8pm and ended by 1:00AM with significant payouts. The best tournament for players like myself is on Bovada (8PM 30k $50). I hate this random player bull****, but at least it's a good tournament.

There isn't a single person here that wants tournaments to end in 4 hours.

6-7 hour length MTT's is what people want....that's the length that's practical in the real world for recreational players who constitute 99% of the internet poker market.

You were being generous by saying "maybe 5-20% support 15 minute levels." There is no way 5-20% of players want 15 minute levels.

lol OK. Solid reasoning for your arguments there bud.

Your insipid diatribes are so beyond old at this point it's amazing anyone (including me) wastes time by dignifying your ignorant posts with a response.

You use terms such as "everyone" and "600 people" and the like, and then criticize someone when they say 5-20% want something or don't want something. Unless you are scouring threads to pull actual data (what a novel concept...), any statements you make concerning numbers are laughable and render your argument invalid.

Did you ever stop to think that there are other, very viable and reasonable opinions in this world that aren't the same as yours? If you are going to post and be so sure about what you state, put in the work and back up what you say. If not, go troll elsewhere because we're quite stocked up here.

LOL there is nobody holding a gun to your head making you play mtts on wpn? All jokes aside, shouldn't someone consider length of mtt if they will play on a weeknight?

I agree with you that mtts prolly are too long on weekdays but on weekends... I disagree. I typically will play all day and anyone that plays mtt should probably have a lot of time if they want to make a deep run. Its more beneficial to me to play an mtt where the final table is deep vs a short stack late like an mtt at merge for bigger money.

Maybe i'm wrong but I find it more entertaining to play 3 handed late in an mtt 40 bbs deep vs poor players rather than 10bbs deep. Def better long term to play deeper late against muppets no? With a 10-15bb stack... sure a great player knows +ev shoves moreso than your random rec player but still so much luck involved.

If anything comes from this thread, I would say maybe WPN should add more mtts that are quicker also to entertain people like yourself. I just would rather play deep mtts as its more favorable to better players.

Dude everything you have said in this thread is LOL. Again nobody is forcing a rec player to play late at night before work. Isn't it there fault if they play an mtt and make a deep run when they have to work the next day?

You're right and that's why 10's of thousands of players don't play poker on WPN.

Technically, I don't have a choice...as the only other options are garbage...Bovada (anonymous player pools) and Merge (sketchy history in recent years and no rake back). If the alternative options to WPN were better I wouldn't be having this discussion with you. We're stuck choosing from 3 poker networks that all have serious flaws.

It was never a problem playing MTT's on weeknights for 10 years before Black Friday. It didn't become a problem until Merge and WPN tried to copy Pokerstars (lulz) and made 15 minute levels the standard. When blinds are 10-12 minutes then playing MTT's on weeknights is no problem...when blinds are 15 minutes playing MTT's on weeknights isn't even possible for people with jobs.

Yes, we do.

That's why we don't play poker on WPN.


That's why the site loses business from the majority of the American internet poker market and has barely grown at all in 3 years.


Did you read anything that was posted here?

There hasn't been a single person in this thread that has said tournaments are "too long on the weekends." The entire discussion has revolved around weeknight MTT's and the lack of practicality with 15 minute levels on them.

So, who are you "disagreeing" with?

Every person here complaining about the 15 minute levels has stated this exact same thing...there hasn't been a single person on this thread that has proposed getting rid of the the MTT's with 15 minute levels.

Nobody is trying to get rid of your precious 15 minute levels...we're trying to get more tournaments with equal sized guarantees on the schedule and 10-12 minute levels that fit into a weeknight schedule for recreational players that don't have time to play 10 hours a night....posting $1,000 guarantees with 10-12 minute levels doesn't cut it...we want $10,000 guarantees with 10-12 minute levels.

Dude...you clearly didn't read anything I said. So...

I have to respond to posters that say the same thing...

AGAIN
and
AGAIN

and AGAIN.

I could just be rude and not respond at all to the guy...next time I'll just put," refer to my previous post."

How does that sound? Will that appease you whiners who don't like seeing me respond to posters who make statements that have already been made because they were too lazy to the read the thread first?

It's not my fault the guy makes a post without reading the entire thread...it's his.

The few people who want 15 minute levels are the people bitching....99% of the internet poker market is being inconvenienced to the point of not being able to play MTT poker on WPN because of a few wannabe Hellmuths. Got to give the 15 minute titty babies their bottle....even if it means restricting a large portion of the internet poker market from playing because of time constraints.

One group is complaining because of preference (15 minute level camp) and the other is complaining because of necessity (people who need 10-12 minute levels to fit the MTT's into their daily schedule.) When you're complaining because of necessity then it's not "bitching." When you're complaining because you prefer 15 minute levels (you don't need them) then you're just being a selfish spoiled little brat who wants to get your way because you merely prefer something.

LOL at Dsl calling 12 minute levels a necessity. As if we need them to survive lmaoooo.

But dude how delusional are you really? Someone basically says he stopped reading because of you and you somehow think it's because of everyone except you. I mean seriously let's get some 12 minute levels I wanna play poker against this guy


And really stop posting this thread was obviously intended for feedback on the schedule, and you've given the same feedback at least 3 dozen times. If they want to take it into consideration they will.

This guy makes a lot of sense. Whats the point of 3 hour late reg for tourneys with 5 dollar and 10 dollar buyins? Why is it a plus toplay 8 hours in these type tourneys where the prize bounus is less then the buyin for the dilluted pool. The site can't make concessions in 5 and 10 dollar buyin tournaments? Talk about beating a dead horse. Lot of rec players play these type of tournaments what an abomination. I played them 2 or 3 time before not bothering anymore.

Survive? No.

Maximize the number of players/prizes in the MTT tournament pool? Yes.

I've been on 2+2 for seven years. I started out asking questions and posting hands, and every day, sometimes several times a day, I got a response that was some variation of "you're doing it wrong. It hurt, but I knew I could be better, so I considered what I was being told. Then one day I was spending half of my 2+2 time on the Beginners thread, but this time I was telling other people that they were doing it wrong.

I'm going to do something I've only done once before in the last seven years. I'm calling for a moderator to get involved in this thread. You're out of control, and someone needs to slow you down.

As far as posting and debating on these threads, you're clearly doing it wrong.

First, you're pulling numbers out of the air without really knowing what you're talking about, and you do it in every single post. When I said that some of us like 15 minute blind levels, I guessed that the percentage of players that agree with me was between 5% and 20%, and I even admitted that it was a guess.

Your response was, "99% of the internet poker market is being inconvenienced" by those of us who like 15-minute blinds. Wow, really? 99%? I've laid out of examples of players and situations where 15-minutes blinds are preferable, and instead of just accepting that people can disagree with you, you pull numbers our of your butt. You come across like a 6-year old throwing a tantrum.

Not only aren't you making any real contribution to this thread, but I worry that your misuse of numbers, coupled with possible anger issues and a lack of logical thinking, might bleed over and affect your poker playing if it isn't already.

To make my case, both to you and to the moderator, I need to point out a few more things in your most recent post that are troubling.

What does insulting people accomplish? Calling people with a legitimate point of view a wannabe Hellmuth (not an insult by the way, he's been a winning player for a very long time, and still is) isn't that big a deal, but "Got to give the 15 minute titty babies their bottle"?

The two sides of this argument have been pretty well laid out at this point, juvenile insults like that won't change WPN's decision (or mine), and adds nothing to the thread.

Finally, it is inceredibly arrogant to say that your preference is a necessity and for those on my side of the argument it's only a preference. Good players understand that poker is situational and that tournament selection is critical for anyone that wants to make a living playing poker.

I understand that shorter tournaments might be better for you. And you should clearly know from what I've said in earlier posts that as a full-time poker player, I need to look for deep tournaments with large player pools, where first place pays at least 100 buy-ins.

You have to keep your emotions under control and deal with all kinds of people to be a winning player. I have no idea if you're a good or bad player, but I think that your emotions must be a serious leak and that whatever your skill level, staying off tilt could make you better.

I'm not asking for the moderator to step in because I'm mad at you. I don't tilt. Someone could call my wife a whore at a live table and I wouldn't even respond. I would concentrate on bringing the cash home to my wife, who loves counting it. If you get mad at a live table, good players will take advantage of that and wind up with a lot of your chips.

I really hope that you can get it together. I got sick of getting corrected and being told how little I knew in the Beginners thread. I argued with the corrections once in a while, but most of the time I understand that the poster was giving me a reality check, because I wanted to do whatever was necessary to get better.
'
I hope that if the moderator slaps you down, that will be your reality check. One of the best moments in my poker career was when I could tell those guys, who were sometimes pretty rough on me, that the guy who was always "doing it wrong" in $1 SNGs now had a 16% ROI at $10. They were very pleased that I had listened to them and become a decent player.

I hope that someday you can tell me that you calmed down, got yourself together, realized that you weren't always right, and concentrated on being a great poker player. I will be looking forward to the day that that it happens.

I've said what I needed to say to you, and it's clear that I favor 15 minute blinds. Unless someone in this thead has something to say to me, and does so in a civil manner, I have nothing more to say on the issues already discussed in this thread.

"Mommy come help!"


My numbers were a guess, too.

You pulled numbers out of your butt, too.


BUT, it is a FACT that 99% of Internet poker players are recreational players....only 1% of Internet poker players turn a profit....the other 99% log on and lose their money...therefore, they don't care about 15 minute levels and won't play on the site because those structures prevent them from fitting MTT poker into their daily routine.

Absolutely...without a doubt....15 minute structures anger me and put me on tilt before the first card is ever dealt. THAT'S WHY I REFUSE TO PLAY POKER ON WPN.


Thousands of players are on "Structure Tilt" from playing on WPN and that's why we don't play poker on the network and we never will. Of course, we're going to be pissed off...the structures won't allow us to play the tournament and still get rest before work the next day.





I was insulted first.



It has nothing to do with arrogance...its a fact that 10-12 minute blinds are necessity for players with day jobs. We can't fit 15 minute levels into daily work routines. Are you saying that people with day jobs don't need 10-12 minute levels to fit MTT poker into their daily work routines?

Sorry, but you're being unreasonable if you disagree. It's not opinion that people with day jobs can't fit 15 minute level MTT poker into their daily routines....IT'S A FACT.

It's a fact that only 1% of players are winning players? It's a fact that you are pulling numbers out of your butt. If 99% of players today are recreational players, then poker would be easier today than it was 10 years ago.

20r/a 5k 6max structure is terrible. I know people have already talked about it but 2k 2k 5k is pretty bad. no wonder you guys are going to overlay the shi.t out of it.