Alright so it was like 7.30am in the morning, I had been playing O8 all night, watched half of an illegally downloaded movie, was tired but didnt want to sleep. So I sat down at my computer, logged into PokerStars and thought I'd play something for fun. Five Card Draw? I'd read there's low variance so having some fun with it can't be that harmful if you have some poker sense. As a winning small stakes player I like to think I do.

I haven't read anything about Draw before except this one time I think I read a webpage about it. All I know is, your minimum UTG hand should be two aces, and you don't play what 'they' call "shorts" and what most people call "small pairs". Your best bet for putting people on hands without any prior information is the amount of cards they draw. You then play some poker with them and pick up a few of their habits, see how they play, and make notes. After that you adjust your calling and raising requirements based on how nitty/aggressive they seem to be, and from there you make some cash.

I played four tables today of Draw, 1 table of 10c/20c, 1 table of 25c/50c, and 2 tables of 50c/$1 (I am overrolled for all of these and would've played $1/$2 if it was running). The following was my experience:

The players at all of these limits were woefully loose passive for the most part. They failed to raise when entering the pot at almost every opportunity and did not 3 bet very often at all. Some of them made extremely bad bluffs (like drawing two in the small blind after open completing and then leading out after the draw with a pair of fours even though the big blind took three). A couple of the players would only three bet with three aces or better before the draw. 3 betting with two pair was very uncommon. Mostly they would just call both pre and post unless they had aces up or better. Some would not raise with strong hands at all. I saw one player limp under the gun with three fives, draw the standard two cards and check call after the draw against a man who raised in position and drew one! Such passivity! Raising before the draw with flush and straight draws seldom occurred (they would limp with such hands even when the pot odds were unfavourable, sometimes even calling multiple bets cold with such hands). Out of all the four tables I saw only one player who clearly better than all the others and was around the same skill level as me. I did not get to see anyone snowing - from what I could tell, people rarely bluffed but if they did it was poorly executed. I even saw one player routinely limp and draw to ace high three flushes.

I began to think that such play will lead to them going broke eventually should anyone with a clue come and clean up. Entirely a brag, I did bust a few people slowly but surely. On the 25c/50c table I sat with a mere $10 and ran it up to a few cents over $40 in a matter of three or four hours. However in the beginning of the session I dropped around $20 at one of the 50c/$1 tables basically getting unlucky every hand (if I had aces or a low two pair or the like, they would draw out to flushes/straights/crap two pair/low trips). On the 10c/20c table, I made $2. I only ended up losing on the 50c/$1 tables (start with $25 on each -$20, reload to $25, down to $18ish, and on the other $25 ran up to $38). So +$30-$20+$2-$7+$18 = $22 profit!

Last part of this discussion. I want to know a few things. Like I said, I think I have a basic grasp of what I should be doing. I always raised coming in. I threw away worse than aces in early position. If someone raised before me I would throw away worse than two aces. If I didn't fold after someone raised I would 3 bet. I didn't open limp with draws. I raised on the button with ace high flush draws and big open ended straights like KQJTx. On the button I would raise with tens or better. If it was a limped pot and I had a small pair and an ace kicker in the small blind I would call and draw for aces up. I wouldn't call with straight/flush draws unless the pot odds were favourable (4 to 1 or better). I folded hands like a pair of kings which I raised with once I got 3 bet since I knew that their range would be aces up or better. I didn't value bet worse than kings and queens after the draw unless it was a very specific situation (like I raised on the button with aces, big blind fish calls, draws 3, I draw 3, he checks after the draw, I value bet aces unimproved, he calls with queens unimproved). If I raised with two small pair I would not value bet that after the draw. I was 3 betting any two pair or better, and against a button raise I would 3 bet aces in the big blind. If someone drew cards indicating they had a better hand than that which I was drawing to I would fold after the draw and not put any more money in the pot. Sometimes I would raise with low trips and check call after the draw (I drew two) if there was two or more players who limped and drew one or three cards (I figure its obvious I have trips, they are not going to call me with worse than my low trips, right?)

Firstly is that the kind of thing I ought to be doing? And secondly, what is the best way to adjust to such really passive play? How do I not make the mistake of raising with jacks+ in position when a player limps with his draws and small pairs under the gun just as much as his three fives? Do I simply play my range against theirs, raise it up, and if they already have me beat, then I just have to deal with that? Do I have to increase my raising requirements based on the number of people in the pot? For example, if there are three limpers and I have a hand like threes and deuces in the small blind, do I fold, raise or call before the draw?

Hope you liked my post, lets talk some STRAT!

where were you playing? and I assume it was limit 5cd?
Im just starting 5cd and had a very good few first days and then had a couple of losing days.
Ive only seen this passive play in tables full of regulars. When a new players jumps along theres a lot more action but he usually goes busto.
Ive seen ppl limp w/ 555 like you explained, only to call a raise from someone trying to steal later on. Heck theyll limp with a pat hand to try and steal a raise.

GG. As far as strategy, I myself am trying to figure mine out, but it sounds like you got the basics down pretty well. Which is like 70 % of this game imo

I have a very similar strategy to you lucius. Not sure which site you were playing on but on stars at the 0.25/0.5 level the players are absolutely atrocious. They'll call with any random pairs, flush draws, gutshots.....you name it they'll call even in a capped pot. for the most part this is great as far as profitability goes. Unforutnately when you do hit a bad spell (like i seem to have been in for the last 2-3k hands) they are the most frustrating people in the world to play against.

What kind of stop loss limit do any other limit 5CD players set themselves? And also what kind of length losing streaks are considered normal assuming your a relatively competent player (which i consider myself to be although i may well be wrong)

as far as drawing to straights/flushes goes my strategy differes slightly to yours. I won't call and draw to a stragiht/flush without getting at least 5 to 1 (drawing 1 to a flush is 4.22:1 and drawing 1 to a OESD is 4.88 to 1) that way your covered pretty much for the times that you hit your flush and still lose I'm still very new to 5CD though so this may be a poor strategy.

OK thanks for that information. I didnt know the exact odds, I was pretty sure it was around 4 to 1 for each, glad you cleared that up for me. More stuff like that would be gold ITT.

When it comes to stop losses in any poker game, I don't really believe in them. If I am playing my best game and can shrug off any bad beats I get, I continue to play whilst the game is still good. David Sklansky is a proponent of this and has testified to it in a poker training video from the 1980's! Unfortunately though, I can't say I always think logically and can easily go on tilt, and yet I continue to play whilst tilted. The best thing you can do is just stop playing, go do something else. The more I have played poker, the less I have tilted because you just learn to deal with it; its all swings and roundabouts.

And my 5 card draw experience ITT was from PokerStars. I think there are some games on OnGame and Paradise Poker, but I have only played in the OnGame ones briefly for fun.

To reiterate my initial post, if anyone could tell me about how to adjust my raising requirements per certain players and number of players in the pot, that would be super. Also am I correct to check low (888 or lower) trips a lot of the time after the draw (assuming I drew two)?

Predraw your strategy is similar to mine. The only add is that the non-pair cards make a difference. Even UTG 6-handed I think AKKxx and AKQQxx is absolutely an open-raise, not just AAxxx. Of course you are usually drawing 3 as a default, sometimes drawing 2 to mix it up- but only if you're playing against players you need to do that with. This will extend to later positions... in LP TTAQJ is probably an open raise too also since you know the rest of the deck is thinner on highcards.

Postdraw this game depends more on reads than anything. As a default I'd be happy betting out kings up or better vs. a 3 card drawer. Think getting a call from a lower 2-pair that wouldn't bet out is worth the investment. Depends on the player so much, some limit .25/.5 players are more suspicious than others and will call lighter especially vs. me in a blind vs. blind when I'm opening pretty light.

I'd never, ever call predraw with a 1-card draw to a straight or flush. Pretty much always raise with the intention of firing out postdraw no matter what. Balances out my 1-card draws to 2-pair where I'm pretty much always open raising predraw anyways.

The above all applies to Limit. PL and NL I suspect are different animals, and would love to hear some transitioning from Limit 5CD to PL/NL. I'd imagine building a pot predraw is less important than deception at PL/NL where implied odds vs. and unaware opponent are higher and RIO is less important than in hold'em.

also: I'm feeling like 2pr is to 5CD what TPTK is to hold 'em.

You figured this game out fast and I think most of what you said is spot-on.

I am not a great high-draw player but I play with one. Your raising range is the same as his. If you’re playing limit I would not check low trips though. In low limits I see a lot of people raise with jacks or better only to draw two to try to disguise their hands (of course, in the original 5CD game jacks or better was the min opener which cuts down on range considerable!). This is a good play to occasionally make in pot limit/NL to mix up play but I think is rarely correct in limit – just not a big enough pot to try to bluff.

I would limp some draws in position with limpers and in limit even call a bet with an ace-high flush draw if enough people are in. Agree on raising those draws in position too which important to mix up your two-pair hands.

Personally I have trouble with aces in position to a raise in limit. I tend to raise but am up against 2-pair or trips a decent amount of those times. I raise and if the raiser flats they usually are taking one to two-pair which leaves me with plenty of outs, and when they re-pop I have two outs. In PL this is easier because either they’re someone with a broader raising range than me (which makes it an obvious re-raise) or they aren’t which makes it call-draw for set.

I think this is like most poker where if you’re against passive players who limp too much the proper adjustment for best EV is to raise more often with your range, and that is definitely true in limit (where by definition it’s a value-bet game).

Glad you got this post started – hope it gets longer.

i think you got it all close enough to right

i dont see all that much of the super passive play you describe but i think that its right to simply play your range against theirs as you suggest - yes you will have to suck up feeling stupid sometimes in the face of the ridiculously big hands they will turn over from time to time

its not standard to draw 2 to trips - its standard to draw 1 - the only difference is that your odds of making quads is halved and the deceptive value of never drawing 2 more than makes up for that - if you never draw 2 you always value bet trips

i almost never draw to a kicker - your reverse implied odds are horrible - ie the other guys make trips - it might be ok in the sort of spots you describe but it would be close - bettter to be the guy making trips and having 2 pair calling

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

M2smith I hope it gets longer too. Really enjoying the discussion so far!

Alright chickenhawk so I suppose with the trips in most spots you're better off disguising so you get paid off. I assume its 100% correct to draw two when a 3 or 4 bettor pats/draws 2?

Please, someone let me know about what to do in that that kind of two pair in the small blind after multiple limpers spot?

If you have the best hand pre- (which you probably do with any 2p, especially with a bunch of limpers) then you raise and re-evaluate post- as well as you can in whatever position you're in.

does somebody know some good articles? nice posting people, I just wanna know how is the BRM for this game, and there is a lot of traffic, why is this so? How is this game beatable vs omaha8 ?

im now playing it for the first time and its really good feeling , but i dont know how which hands i should play and which 2 pairs from the different positions.. anyone? and lets say i hold a weak pair in BB + AK - what should i discard then-? 3 cards?

Id like to address the last poster first:
@antisolar: Always draw to a pair. And by that I mean always draw 3 cards. This goes mainly for BB defence, out of position. When you raise its OK to draw 2 or even 1 to a pair with kickers, but specially the 1-card draw to a pair with kicker is an "expert" play I dont teach anyone to do. Its suuper situation dependant and should almost never be done.

When it comes to fixed ranges in draw I agree with MadMike on the range UTG in a 6-handed game. QQAKx is definitely an open. Id play that both in UTG and hijack. In the cutoff seat Id play TTAK(Q or J). On the button Id vary my range according to the blinds. If I have passive blinds Id usually open any pair with AK or 77xyz or better. If they reraise with QQ or better Id tighten my range significantly, but still open what I do in cufoff. TT on the button is a must-raise IMO.
Flushdraws and straightdraws in fixed are kinda special. I play straightdraws very conservatively and just about only open that on the button. Flushdraws I open much more liberally and usually bet them postdraw when called by a 3-card draw regardless of what I make(unless its 100% Im getting called). I like my range for one card draws to include complete air also.

I also like to address the issue of blind battles. In a vacuum you should open most pairs with high kickers against an unknown and probably reraise TTAKx in BB. Blind battles also has a special dynamic in terms of the fact that since people have folded all the way round you can be pretty sure no one had AA/KK or maybe even QQ. Sure, those cards can be scattered around in the hands, but you can now "overplay" those hands in the blinds IMO. Id routinely valuebet KK post if I choose to flatcall in bb with AKh and try to steal post whenever checked to if unimproved(if that was your plan). Draws gain value in BB, specially big draws(ie with big cards). Hitting any pair has a higher percentage or making you a winning hand.

Fixed limit draw used to be my bread and butter game, but PL have given me way too much aggression so this thread might be real good for me to tighten up my game. Ive only addressed predraw situations in this post(for the most part at least) but will chime in with post draw whenever I see fit in this thread. I hope bigpooch come and make one if his great posts here. I play feel based, he sure knows the math.

Btw: Great to see a 5CD-thread with many lengthy replies on 2+2 again. Hope this thread will be as good as it promises to be.


Cheers from Bjørnar, playing 5CD online since 2002.

OK I have another question. In my last session I played $1/$2 and won $20. I was dealt a pat low straight twice. Once it was A2345, the other time it was 23456. On each occasion I raised and on each occasion was called in two spots. They either drew one or three (the deuce to six, both drew three).

On both occasions I had position and after the draw I checked after it was checked to me and showed my low straights because they were the very worst pat hands. I won both hands. My intuition tells me I should bet this hand, because I have a fairly strong hand. However I assume that the opponents are like me and when another guy stands pat it means he has a pat hand and is not bluffing - like me they know that pat bluffs are not common at these stakes. So I then assume that they will not call unless they can beat a low straight. I also risk getting raised, in which case they will normally have a full house or flush. I know it is not common to start with a pair and end up with a full house, but having seen it happen myself (I was the glad recipient), I know too well that it is possible.

Is it a mistake to be checking a low pat straight after the draw? Does it differ depending on your table position?

Like this:

PokerStars Game #30619783896: 5 Card Draw Limit ($1/$2) - 2009/07/19 5:02:36 WET [2009/07/19 0:02:36 ET]
Table 'Hippokoon II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: 78OFFTILT ($119.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Justin304 ($57.75 in chips)
Seat 4: Nedotyko ($45.50 in chips)
Seat 5: gocubsgo1975 ($53.25 in chips)
Seat 6: mrx802 ($34 in chips)
mrx802: posts small blind $0.50
78OFFTILT: posts big blind $1
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to 78OFFTILT [A A T 3 4]
Justin304: folds
Nedotyko: folds
gocubsgo1975: raises $1 to $2
mrx802: calls $1.50
78OFFTILT: calls $1
mrx802: discards 3 cards
78OFFTILT: discards 3 cards [Td 3c 4s]
Dealt to 78OFFTILT [A A] [A 6 6]
gocubsgo1975: discards 3 cards
mrx802: checks
78OFFTILT: bets $2
gocubsgo1975: folds
mrx802: folds
Uncalled bet ($2) returned to 78OFFTILT
78OFFTILT collected $5.75 from pot
78OFFTILT: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6 | Rake $0.25
Seat 1: 78OFFTILT (big blind) collected ($5.75)
Seat 2: Justin304 folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Nedotyko folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 5: gocubsgo1975 (button) folded after the Draw
Seat 6: mrx802 (small blind) folded after the Draw

There are situations in which checking a pat hand post-draw might be acceptable (i.e. a tournament in its latest stages or something) but in a cash game, no, you bet! If you're never called with a pat hand you're making a mistake, that is you don't bluff enough. Get into a game, pat bluff once and people will take notes and your real pat hands will be called more often.

As you correctly pointed out, pat hands are rare enough, they're pretty useless if you can only squeeze out one more pre-draw bet/raise and post-draw it's just check/check or bet/fold. Vary your game, stand pat with 2 pairs sometimes, or even with total garbage. Confuse your opponents. Especially since you have a stone-cold image of never bluffing you should get away for quite a while before someone looks you up.

Like this:

PokerStars Game #30627779533: 5 Card Draw Limit ($1/$2) - 2009/07/19 12:57:38 WET [2009/07/19 7:57:38 ET]
Table 'La Silla' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: østbygda ($5.25 in chips)
Seat 2: 78OFFTILT ($74 in chips)
Seat 3: Figliodoro ($42.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Käptenpierre ($10 in chips)
Seat 5: TracyMc68 ($40 in chips)
Seat 6: Grompie12 ($10 in chips)
Figliodoro: posts small blind $0.50
Käptenpierre: posts big blind $1
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to 78OFFTILT [8 6 7 4 2]
TracyMc68: folds
Grompie12: raises $1 to $2
østbygda: calls $2
78OFFTILT: raises $1 to $3
Figliodoro: folds
Käptenpierre: folds
Grompie12: calls $1
østbygda: calls $1
Grompie12: discards 3 cards
østbygda: discards 3 cards
78OFFTILT: stands pat on [8 6 7 4 2]
Grompie12: checks
østbygda: checks
78OFFTILT: bets $2
Grompie12: folds
østbygda: folds
Uncalled bet ($2) returned to 78OFFTILT
78OFFTILT collected $10 from pot
78OFFTILT: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.50 | Rake $0.50
Seat 1: østbygda folded after the Draw
Seat 2: 78OFFTILT (button) collected ($10)
Seat 3: Figliodoro (small blind) folded before the Draw
Seat 4: Käptenpierre (big blind) folded before the Draw
Seat 5: TracyMc68 folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Grompie12 folded after the Draw

PokerStars Game #30628351434: 5 Card Draw Limit ($1/$2) - 2009/07/19 13:24:38 WET [2009/07/19 8:24:38 ET]
Table 'La Silla' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: JerBar1986 ($24 in chips)
Seat 2: 78OFFTILT ($78.75 in chips)
Seat 3: Figliodoro ($51.75 in chips)
Seat 4: poesycat ($40.50 in chips)
Seat 5: abreks ($17.25 in chips)
Seat 6: Grompie12 ($6.50 in chips)
poesycat: posts small blind $0.50
abreks: posts big blind $1
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to 78OFFTILT [9 2 A A Q]
Grompie12: folds
JerBar1986: folds
78OFFTILT: raises $1 to $2
Figliodoro: folds
poesycat: folds
abreks: raises $1 to $3
78OFFTILT: calls $1
abreks: stands pat
78OFFTILT: discards 3 cards [9 2 Q]
Dealt to 78OFFTILT [A A] [7 7 A]
abreks: bets $2
78OFFTILT: raises $2 to $4
abreks: raises $2 to $6
78OFFTILT: raises $2 to $8
Betting is capped
abreks: calls $2
*** SHOW DOWN ***
78OFFTILT: shows [7 7 A A A] (a full house, Aces full of Sevens)
abreks: mucks hand
78OFFTILT collected $21.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $22.50 | Rake $1
Seat 1: JerBar1986 folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 2: 78OFFTILT showed [7 7 A A A] and won ($21.50) with a full house, Aces full of Sevens
Seat 3: Figliodoro (button) folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 4: poesycat (small blind) folded before the Draw
Seat 5: abreks (big blind) mucked [J 5 Q 6 3]
Seat 6: Grompie12 folded before the Draw (didn't bet)

Lucius,
excellent table selection on your part!
the lineups i've always faced in L5CD @ .25/.50 to 1/2 have been a helluva lot tuffer.
That last hand, being 1/2,
I could only DREAM of a flush calling me down capped.
98% of the scenarios I've seen like this [pat v. draw 3, capped post-draw]
show a draw 3 making a boat.

Q:
the hand before that, w/ the 87642 snow...
a soul read on both guys, or a pre-meditated snow attempt?

Well, I just wanted to do it, so I did it. I read in this thread I should bluff sometimes so I thought I might as well do it for the sake of the thread! I felt like the raiser probably has a pair or two, and the caller is weak otherwise he would've 3 bet, so I raised and patted. Plus I have a sexy pat 8 low.

I didn't show them my hand either

i have a problem, lets say i have AAKKx, and the villain draws 2 cards - and then bets on the "river" - then im confused cause i dont now when he has trips or when he drawed 1 pair with good kicker.

or he draws 1 card - and is OOP and then bets the river - whats your line here - check/call or check raise with top 2 pairs?

another question:

lets say there are 2 limpers and i have KK99x on the button - what should i do? raise or limp like a pimp?

or when you have Ad2d3d7dx - you discard 4 cards or go on the flush? in unraised pots

and the last:

what should i do with QQ+xxx when someone raised before?

and what should i do with low dealt trips - they make only problems cause when you have 222-777 always someone makes better trips :\

I suggest you show that pat-bluff. So great for your image.

On the other hand. If the action is capped post and the draw was pat vs 3 cards. Its either a total spew monkey bluffing or you have two boats(or better). This is not so uncommon. Its "only" 76 to 1 against it.

The question about checking pats post if there is no other pat in the hand: Big no no. Always bet your pats. People will call you! Be amazed at how many players out there that wants to catch someone bluffing or is just looking at their own hand and is like, "OMG, I have AAA! He must be bluffing, so sick."

Your first question cant be answered in a vacuum. Its 100% player dependant. Against an complete unknown I will never do anything but call down if there is a bet in front of me. Its only two pairs. I think that is the biggest flaw of players unfamiliar with this game. Overplaying two pairs with no reads.

For your other questions: Always raise with KK99. That is a 3-betting hand and in some games 4-bet or even 5-bet!
Draw to the flush.
Fold QQ unless you are in the BB and there is a bet and a call. If you have QQAKJ its a bit more of a tough situation. With no reads its still a fold though. It can definetly be OK to call in the blinds if the button opens. Button should have a range wide enough for QQ to be ahead enough times. I do think JJ and QQ are difficult to play postdraw against an aggressive button though. No matter what he draws predraw will make you question yourself if you are good or not.

oh thank you man! you really help me a lot and i like your answers, you must have some experience with this gam: i have edited my post and there is another question:

and what should i do with low dealt trips - they make only problems cause when you have 222-777 always someone makes better trips - multiway.. :\


i really like this topic, hope we will make some real strategies

we could play onetime on pstars microlimits together and study it in real time

I play on Pokerstars. I'm always happy to discuss the game with anybody, and I'd be happy to critique your play if we sit at the same table.

which tables do you play? my sn is acintya and yours? maybe we will play sometimes

im little crazy now,

do i limp only draws (flush straight) when i get good odds : 5:1 or are there any otehr hands that i should limp ? normally i raise everything and i think a great thing is as Bjornar said -> when u have trips u discard one card instead of two, manny villains then think you have 2 pair - and call their 2 pairs more - this is one big thing i guess

i must say im really satisfied did a nice + today - my first 5cd 30 bucks thanks to my aggro play and the advices