I'm assuming starting hand standards are along the lines of jacks-or-better, most four flushes and some 4-straights?

Stupid question #1: When you have a pair, always discard the other 3?

#2: Is it ever right to break a decent or good made hand to draw? I suppose I can think of a couple examples, but I'm unclear overall on the concept.

I understand position and betting/drawing patterns probably play a lot into the advanced strategy...anyone got any tricks or tips?

thanks.

edit: sorry I see there is info in the sticky, delete if this post makes people angry.

O.K., I guess. Is there a joker (to be used with aces, straights, and flushes) in the deck or not?
I think it depends. Nix on the "always."
In general, I wouldn't, but if I held
5, 4, 3, 2, A on the button and someone I wouldn't think would be crafty or tricky stayed pat, I might discard the 5 and draw for the straight flush or ace-high flush. The danger in doing that would be giving up the high hand to someone playing two pair or trips pat.
Read super system I.
I'll leave it here. Maybe we'll both learn something.

Buzz

Drawing 2 to a pair is an option. Both to catch an A if you hold KK (or a K kicker if you hold AA) or to fake trips. This is however only possible if you sometimes discard 2 to trips, and not 1 all the time (which is probably considered 'standard').

Breaking a pat hand can be done for 2 reasons (that I know of):

- You have a weak pat hand (as in Buzz' example) and villain is also pat
- You hold a very strong hand and want action against a drawing hand to a pair (for example you have AAA33, villain draws 3)

I think in the 2nd case breaking is useful more often. On the first occasion you can never be 100% sure if it was necessary. I tend not to break made pat hands for reason number 1.

Like with all poker games there are no hard fast rules for playing this game.

If you have no read on your table my experience has been, its better to be cautious in early position.

Don't chase every 4 flush you get 4 flushes with multiple (2 or more) high cards 10 or higher. are better than crappy low draws, because if they hit the high card but miss the flush that might be enough to win. Flushes with gutshots str8 draws etc...

Don't fall in love with AA or KK, or small 2 pr (4422x etc..). especially after the draw. Don't be too aggressive after the draw with those hands unless you are up against a calling station

Don't be afraid to put on the breaks after a re-raise especially mid low trips (10-10-10 or lower) small 2 pr or weak flush draws. sometimes its better to fold.
I had a hand where I was 2 behind the BB, had trip 4's I raised 3x BB (150) got reraised by the button (600) and cold called by the BB. I though about it and dumped the hand predraw button drew 2 big blind drew 1(to req 2 pr), both got it all in. button had quad 3's (he hit his 1 outter) and the bb had trip Q's, and I hear Bobbly Belande say "Nice Laydown" in my head...

I almost never play for straight draws, they are lower odds to hit than flushes, and if they do hit you aren't confident that they are the best hand against 1 or 2 other 1 card draws. (2 pr can improve to FH, Flush draw can improve to flush, or even a higher straight) If you are last to act and you have late limpers, you can raise and let the 1 draw represent 2pr and lead out if its checked to you but you can't do this against calling stations, and be prepared to get caught once in a while. The good news is that if you get caught like this people will not give you credit and it will let you play a strong 2 pr (AAxxy or KKxxy) more aggressively and get paid.

PAY ATTENTION some people vary their game, most novices play any pair, any pair and a high card, chase every flush chase every straight etc... find the calling stations,

If you see Mike Cairo around pick his brain because he's forgotten more about 5 card draw than I hope to learn.

And if you want to get better,

Play the 1.00+.10 PL 5c draw SNG's on PokerStars, (they go fairly often) or the 5.00 PL games @ 7:45 pm (make your mistakes as cheaply as possible).

There are some donkeys in there but there are usually 1 or 2 decent players in there.

Strangely, PL draw was my first game, but I rarely play it now!

Don't open limp unless you have a good reason (why give the
blinds a free or cheap shot to make something, even if you
have a good flush draw? The last time I had a free shot in
the BB and bet out after drawing four, I stacked somebody
who made a flush). There are two popular opening raise sizes:
3xBB to go or 2xBB to go; it's probably better to use the first
for practical reasons and the second against decent opposition.
"Mix" these two depending on the cards and the situation.

If first in, only play JJ from the cutoff/button/SB. Even QQ is
nothing special from the hijack unless you have QQAxy. Many
four-flushes are "sucker hands" to open raise with (better to
fold weak ones unless there is an offsuit ace to discard and
the table is exploitable), but standard semibluffing hands are
straight flush draws and ace-high flush draws; pick a few
more if you think a raise will either pick up the blinds or the
pot postdraw if heads up against an exploitable opponent.
The only straight draws that might be worth playing in late
position to open raise with will look like KQJT or AQJT9 since
it's not impossible to win by pairing on "paint", although Mike
Caro mentions that all straight draws are "sucker hands".

Open raise with KKA+ always; even with KKA utg in 6max, at
least try to pick up the blinds. On the button, you can open
raise with as little as 88 but don't do it with something like
88932. In the small blind, you want to open for more than the
minimum when heads up against the BB except against an
exploitable BB: anywhere from 2.5xBB to 3xBB to go is fine
depending on what range you want to play and who the BB is.
(On the other hand, it's likely a spot where you can open
for the minimum with AQ+ and some AJ-high hands since so
many players seem to fold predraw or postdraw more than
theoretically.)

#1: rarely draw two to a pair unless you want to inhibit a
bluff or suspect your opponent also has AA and you have
AA with "paint". In PL, the goal should be to win a decent
pot when you draw three and make trips (or better!), so it's
not far from wrong if you almost never draw two to a pair.
On the other hand, if you draw two to a lot of trips, it's not
out of the question; however, by drawing two to trips, you
may lose out on some payoffs since you can't have a flush
draw or two pairs. When you have a pair and a flush draw,
it depends on the situation.

#2: yes, other posts mention the obvious, but sometimes you
break off a pair of aces to draw to a three-flush if up against
a likely legitimate pat hand. There might be other instances
when drawing three to AA is better than drawing one to aces
up (maybe you're up againt a "nit" that draws two to trips
and that's what you need to beat) and some other rare cases
(here's a strange one but not exactly a "made hand": you
open with an AJ-high flush draw intending to discard a deuce
on the button and the BB defends and draws four - draw
three to AJ here).


Some helpful tips:

Pay attention to the opener and the number of cards drawn
by everyone. If anyone has drawn one in PL/NL, don't get
"married to trips" (you don't even need to lead out with trips
if there are two or more opponents that act after you unless
there is a calling station). Figure out who is likely to make
"plays"; it's useful then to know what the "minimum game
theory payoff hand" looks like. When heads up (and even
three-handed), some of your opponents will be exploitable,
but don't go overboard. Make as many notes as reasonable
about your opponents to find out who pays off and who can
lay down a hand. Try to read not only hands, but get into
the heads of your opposition to figure out what they are
thinking (not just what they think you have but what they
think you think). Think about your opponent's range and
what your opponent thinks your range is.

Some tricky hands are two pairs: you have to muck a lot
of the weak to medium two pairs predraw even if you
opened with them but are repopped. Also, don't just cold
call with trips unless you're doing it for a specific reason
(it better be good!) since it's likely the best predraw (sure,
if somebody goes over the top, then you can muck it).
Also, there isn't a hand weaker than a boat that you
should be ashamed of laying down; conversely, there isn't
a hand stronger than 22 that you should be ashamed of
when paying off.

Get a copy of Nesmith Ankeny's PL draw poker book and
kibitz any PL 3-6 or higher games on PokerStars (yeah,
there are still a lot of "mistakes" but try to figure out how
these "mistakes" happened). If you are playing low stakes,
just show down winners and don't try too many fancy
plays.

I might be mistaken here, but I think "Shaniac" is a pretty successful tournament hold em player. At least I saw a guy nicknamed "Shaniac" on some WPT final table on TV. Don't think, he plays 1$ SNGs, even though it MIGHT make sense

yep, that is him

I'm guessing Shaniac is planning on playing the WCOOP $215 PL Draw event. I've played tons of small buyin draw tourneys (on Stars and other sites) over the past few years. I also played the WCOOP $215 draw last year, along with big buy-in draw tournaments on B2B and PokerRoom back when US residents could play on those sites. I bring that up because the "typical" players for these tourneys are very different. The typical "regular" in low buy-in draw events tends to play either weak-tight or loose-passive. Now, tight is good in 5CD, because if you are too loose you are going to end up in too many situations where you are drawing very, very slim. But weak-tight is bad, as constant open-limping is just a recipe for eventually getting outdrawn and losing a critical pot.

In WCOOP and similar series, the typical player is someone who plays a lot of NLHE tournaments. Many of these players are pretty good at NLHE and tournament strategy in general. But when they play draw, their mistakes tend to be on the aggressive side rather than the passive side-overplaying marginal hands like small/medium two pair and bluffing too frequently and in bad spots. I actually fear this type of player more because it's harder to know where you are at, versus the passive ABC types who make it easy for you to get away from hands when you are beat. Oh, and most draw regulars are TERRIBLE at tournament strategy and make huge blunders once the stacks are short.

Although I've done pretty well in any of these tournies and think they are pretty much the softest of all forms of tournament poker, the above quote has caused me a few problems.
When you get short in HE tournies you can use something like icm to calculate when to push or when to fold in particular situations.
The problem is that in holdem you are never that much of an underdog, no matter what you hold, but in draw you can be drawing extremely thin with only one draw to help you.
You can easily go from 10bb to bust in draw without picking up even a pair of jacks or better.
I guess what im trying to ask is how should your shortstack play differ in pl5cd when compared to something like pl or nl he

I just find it funny that you guys are giving out all this advice to players 2-3 days before the WCOOP event, when it's pretty clear they are all asking just so they can up their chances in this tournament.

I would understand if these players were actually interested in learning the game and playing outside of this 1 event a year, but my guess is they really aren't as they are asking for basic strategy such as starting hands etc with only a day or two to spare. Now sure they probably won't become that great in 2 days, but chances are they would play anyway and by giving them even a little strategy you decrease your own chances to win this event, which a regular draw player should have a very good chance at winning.

I'm not mad, or saying don't give them strategy, by all means go ahead if you choose to. I just find it funny. Maybe I'm just more greedy than the rest of you.

You could extend this argument to the entire existence of this forum. While it's true I won't be playing 5CD PL too many times this year, I think it helps me become a more well-rounded poker player to seek out the info in addition to practicing a little, and that's what 2p2 is all about imo.

Interesting event. I'm a regular 5CD MTT 22$ buyin player, won a few and dealt some more at final table with a ROI around 120-130%

But the field of this event was so different from what I've see so far.
I've been playing too tight at the begining, I should have try to be in more pot and do with a significant edge.

My average stack built without effort wasn't enough withtout luck. And opening my range was a very bad idea.
I'm desapointed but I'll be always in for the "Other games" ;-)

is it true you are more likely to hit 2 pr if u throw 2 instead of 3 with a pair?

lets assume the other guy is all in pre and throws 1, you put him on 2 pr cuz he is tight and predictable, never deceptive, would be correct to throw 2 with AA632?

what time of the day is that $22 MTT, i cant find it?

also, i reported a bunch of kiev players for possible collusion. waiting to here back. I checked over 400 hands where there were 2 to 4 kiev players at the same table, there were about 5 showdowns between the kiev players and every single one was a checkdown in the blinds with very bad cards. not one pot where they bet vs each other and showed down. in fact, i couldnt find a single hand where they put any money in the pot vs each other, and a couple situations where they folded the sb with mult limpers, and then the kiev player in the bb raised.

has anyone else suspected the kiev players? also, why do so many kiev players play 5cd?

It's is far more nteresting to hit a trip, a good player will rarely go all in with small two pairs. But I think hiting two pair discarding two is slight favorite.

The 22$ occurs at 14h30 (pokerstar's timestamp), 9h30pm in paris and London
I know there's another one but in the middle of my nights

Concerning colusion, some real case between italian players have been reported to PS, and two screwed players got refund.
It is also a fact that a lot of Draw player refuse to play when players from Kiev are at the table. I think it's only because they are really good, like zxz_.
I never felt like I was being a victim of something.

thanks in the example above i was referring to a tourney where he was shortstacked, not a ring game, sorry for the confusion. the reason i ask is i see players keep hands like JJ9xx vs me when im all in and they are the bb. and one guy said he did it cuz he put me on low 2 pr or QQxxx and up. of course i did have low 2 pr and he hit his 9.

yeah that was my first thought that the kiev players were just really good, especially since the high stakes tables are usually HU with 1 kiev player. but when i looked at those 400 hands i became very suspicious, cant wait to hear back from stars.

Some plays I like making...

"advanced" (realistically i don't know how advanced these plays are but...)

1) If you open limp and draw 1, it looks like you're doing it with a draw. If players have seen you make that play, why not open limp with a good 2 pair and get value when the guy cant fold his 10s up?

2) If you have been caught pat bluffing, you could pat "bluff" again shortly after. But of course this time, you'd be holding a good hand like Aces up or trips that you patted. If someone just saw you pat bluff, it's going to be hard to fold Queens up...

"a little bit beyond basic strategy"

1) Throw 1 when you have trips. Looks like 2 pair or a draw. To go a little further with that....

If you re raise preflop and then draw 1, guys will check/fold a lot of hands. But if you smooth call and draw 1 in posistion, then you will get guys to lead into you or check/call you more often.

2) Use Pat Bluffing SPARINGLY. You will get looked up a lot lighter than you may think. Obviously how tight/loose you have been playing plays into this as well.


I've got more but I am too lazy to type them out...

when you get AKQJ6 in the bb with a limper and a sb limp. what should you throw. I get this type of situation quite often, my guess is keep AK and throw 3.

what if only u vs only the limped sb with the same hand? this may be a good option to raise in position, but ignore that, just want to know what i should throw if i check.

One of the mathematically literate guys broke this down without regard to limit and the result was you should nearly always keep the AK.

tyvm, i cant think of any reasons why it would change for PL NL, since almost all of these situations lead to tiny pots and small hands.

bb vs sb, no raises pre, PL game, with AK852 (flush draw), sb throws 3, do you chase the flush or keep the AK?

what about KQJ92, chase the gut or keep KQ and throw three?

or KQ852 (flush draw), chase the flush or keep KQ?

I would always go for the flush draw but forget about the gutshot, go for the pair in that instance.

With a very "weak" AK-high flush draw, drawing three when
the SB draws three is not much better than drawing to the
flush. By drawing to a flush, the legitimate betting frequency
is 9/47 (plus 4.5/47 bluffs if betting the pot) whereas by
drawing three, the SB will be betting trips+ (for the maximum
bet size, his legitimate betting frequency is about 16/123~
0.13008 but the chances of making trips+ starting with a pair
is about 2064/16215~0.12739; also, some players won't bet
the size of the pot but rather a smaller amount and so the
legitimate betting frequency is even higher) whereas the SB
would normally check to the draw if the BB drew one. If the
BB draws three, after a check, the BB should value bet with
AAK or better. AK(suited) becomes AAK+ about 21% of the
time (almost the same frequency compared to drawing to the
flush: 0.87x0.21~0.183 but 9/47~0.191); of course, some of
those times the SB checks and calls with two pairs.

A difference is if you make a pair between nines and queens:
drawing three to AK results in 99+ with a probability of about
6626/16215~0.409 whereas drawing to AK8x(suited) results
in 88+ with a probability of only 0.383. If the flush draw is
much better, e.g, AKT9-high flush draw, drawing one is better
since there is now about a 0.447 probability of making 99+.
Presumably, since the SB didn't open raise, his range when
drawing three will look like AQ-77 (even though the SB should
be open raising with as weak as 22). The drawback to not
drawing to the flush is that making a pair from 99 to AA may
lead to losing a big bet when the SB bets out with a real hand
(since presumably the BB will pay off with 99+ and would have
raised predraw with at the very least QQK+; otherwise, he will
be exploitable). This payoff scenario should happen almost 5%
of the time; on the other hand, making two pairs after the SB
checks happens about 7% of the time, so theoretically, the BB
gains back a bet about 0.87(0.07)(0.5)~ 3% of the time. In
some of the "payoffs", the BB makes KKK+, so he has a very
comfortable raise (this happens 0.3% of the time). Of course,
in practice, some players in the SB won't bluff nearly as often
as the GT frequency so the payoff scenario won't occur as
often (the BB would simply fold or pay off very selectively).
So it seems that in the example, drawing three will be a little
better (0.409-0.383~0.026 and we haven't even looked into
those cases when making a smaller pair will win since the SB
could have 22, AK or even AQ).


Overall, this depends on how good the AK-high flush draw is.
With AKXY-suited with X,Y>=8, it's probably better to draw to
the flush. With most of these close decisions, it probably
means that the opponent in the SB should be considered.

With KQJ9, simply draw three to KQ; however, with KQJT, it's
similar to a flush draw with four big cards. With the KQ-high
flush draw, again it depends on how high the other cards are,
but now drawing three doesn't result in somewhat likely value
betting with AAK+ as before, so there may be more reason to
consider both "intermediate" cards and the opponent.