Well the hand history converter is not working, but I was wondering If you ever fold a badugi before the first draw and if i played this hand right

PokerStars Game #33090237080: Badugi Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2009/09/20 19:58:29 MT [2009/09/20 21:58:29 ET]
Table 'Euaimon III' 8-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: txngalpb ($13.50 in chips)
Seat 3: cookiemagil ($2.70 in chips)
Seat 4: CHL711 ($6.65 in chips)
Seat 5: PLUCKYDUCKY ($5.15 in chips)
Seat 6: AS_de_SPADES ($13.80 in chips)
Seat 7: mungslinger ($13.10 in chips)
Seat 8: Got_Manning? ($11.10 in chips)
txngalpb: posts small blind $0.10
cookiemagil: posts big blind $0.25
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to mungslinger [Td 9h 7s Kc]
CHL711: folds
PLUCKYDUCKY: folds
AS_de_SPADES: folds
mungslinger: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Got_Manning?: calls $0.50
txngalpb: calls $0.40
cookiemagil: calls $0.25
*** FIRST DRAW ***
txngalpb: discards 1 card
cookiemagil: discards 2 cards
mungslinger: stands pat on [Td 9h 7s Kc]
Got_Manning?: discards 2 cards
txngalpb: checks
cookiemagil: checks
mungslinger: bets $0.25
Got_Manning?: folds
txngalpb: calls $0.25
cookiemagil: calls $0.25
*** SECOND DRAW ***
txngalpb: discards 1 card
cookiemagil: discards 1 card
mungslinger: stands pat on [Td 9h 7s Kc]
txngalpb: checks
cookiemagil: checks
mungslinger: bets $0.50
txngalpb: calls $0.50
cookiemagil: calls $0.50
*** THIRD DRAW ***
txngalpb: discards 1 card
cookiemagil: discards 1 card
mungslinger: stands pat on [Td 9h 7s Kc]
txngalpb: checks
cookiemagil: checks
mungslinger: checks

you played it fine.

Maybe. I don't know. If I were one of your opponents, I'd figure if you patted from third position after a one-card draw and a two-card draw, it was probably with a four-card badugi. And since the median badugi is Q752, I'd figure half the time I'd only have to beat a Q752 badugi to probably have a winning hand.

I like your initial raise, but I don't like Got_Manning?'s call (because Got_Manning? acts behind Hero - and because with the call, the blinds are getting better odds to also call). I don't really want to play a king badugi against three opponents, the first two of whom draw one and two cards with the player behind Hero yet to draw (or not).

So after the one and two card draws, and with Got_Manning? cold calling the raise, I'm inclined to dump the king and draw one. There are nine clubs that are better than the king. Think of drawing three cards. There are 16 groups of three cards in the deck from which your three cards will be chosen. The cards you'll be drawing aren't touching and you don't even know where the three cards in your group of three are located within the deck - but it doesn't matter. In terms of thinking about it, there are probably eight or nine (out of sixteen) groups of three cards that will have a lower and non-pairing club.

Basically, approximately half of the time you'll improve and the other half of the time you'll get worse (and probably won't be able to call a bet on the river).

Without the call from Got_Manning?, I'd probably be inclined to pat. With the call, I'm dumping the king and drawing to the ten, possibly three times.

Jean says you played fine, and he knows more about this game than I do. But I don't want to be playing this king badugi with this action.

Buzz

The problem is that a significant fraction of the time your K-badugi gets beat, a rough T badugi that you'd maybe catch by drawing would be beaten as well. Actually you're probably not really a dog here even with the KT badugi. Sure you don't like the hand to be 4-way, but your opponents will continue to break a K (or Q)-badugi that they'd make on the way much more than they would HU, so I'd expect you be almost par "showdown equity"-wise, even though this expression makes no sense.

If you expect your opponents to be passive and never raise you without a badugi (which is essentially the case at .25-.5 I think), your prospects are even much better than if they were playing good and make your life hard, as you're not losing much ex-showdown-equity-wise.

Here is a try with troutulator; feel free to say that the drawing strategies I picked are crazy, but I would be surprised to find a reasonable triple of strategies for the Villains making our K-badugi really behind

Badugi sim, 100000 trials, 3 draws:
Dead cards: none

Hand 0: 9s Td 7h Kc: standing pat
Hand 1: As 2h -- --: 2nd draw: keep Q badugi, 3 card 8. 3rd draw: keep Q badugi, 3 card T
Hand 2: 2d 3c -- --: 2nd draw: keep Q badugi, 3 card 8. 3rd draw: keep Q badugi, 3 card T
Hand 3: 5d 6h 7s --: 2nd draw: keep Q badugi. 3rd draw: keep Q badugi

Hand 0: 9 T 7 K : EV 24.7% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: total 24.7/75.3/0.0 - badugi 24.7/75.3/0.0 - 3 cards 0.0/0.0/0.0 - 2 or 1 card 0.0/0.0/0.0
Hand 1: A 2 -- -- : EV 22.3% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: total 22.2/77.7/0.0 - badugi 22.2/10.8/0.0 - 3 cards 0.0/60.5/0.0 - 2 or 1 card 0.0/6.4/0.0
Hand 2: 2 3 -- -- : EV 17.0% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: total 17.0/82.9/0.0 - badugi 17.0/11.4/0.0 - 3 cards 0.0/63.3/0.0 - 2 or 1 card 0.0/8.2/0.0
Hand 3: 5 6 7 -- : EV 36.0% - WIN/LOSE/TIE %: total 36.0/64.0/0.0 - badugi 36.0/13.1/0.0 - 3 cards 0.0/50.9/0.0 - 2 or 1 card 0.0/0.0/0.0

In any case, the line between playing a rough badugi pat or breaking it would be below T97 for me here (3-card 8 or smooth 3-card 9 perhaps?).

As played, you played it fine, but this is really rough and the hands you can draw to are also very rough. Anyone who catches a badugi is likely to have yours beat. Also, if you drop the king and make a 10 badugi, you still wont be that thrilled. Either dump the hand predraw, or play it fast like you did.

fwiw I'm almost sure that any badugi is worth raising on the CO, and I'd be surprised if it weren't true even as HJ.

I would say this is true for someone comfortable with the game, but someone who is just getting started might be better off avoiding these tricky issues. This being said, I thought the hero was more out of position, didn't realize he was the CO. Do you agree that UTG this should be mucked?

It sorta depends what type of players are left to act, but yeah I mostly agree.
And yeah this would be a horrible play from UTG but you will see it a lot.

I meant in the vacuum, vs competent players (so all the more vs passive players).

Yeah, I guess HJ-1 and farther I'd muck it by default, but I'm not sure whether it could be played HJ-1 as well.