Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,,

10-31-2010 , 05:34 PM
hi,
I saw a guy folding 8w2 vs utg for one bet from mp1. I know that he is a decent player and he didn't comment his fold in the video so maybe he didnt realize what he had. or is it a good fold? i have been calling here 100% of the time and folding 862. should I be folding 862? EQ wise it is about the same as 8w2 and about the same as 7w2.


edit: this is 2-7 TD
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
10-31-2010 , 07:25 PM
There are some players/lineups where I routinely fold even 762 versus an UTG raise from both MP and the SB. 8w2, 8w3, and 862 are all barely +EV in a heavily raked game versus a showdown-bound post-flop nit with a tight predraw range (i.e. no implied odds from spazzy raises on the turn or excessive snowing frequencies, just ABC value betting and some appropriately stubborn calls on the end), even with position.

Obv never folding if I know he is raising stuff like 8762 or 754 from UTG. Some will only open 7w2 and decent 1cds though. You aren't giving anything up just not getting involved.
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
10-31-2010 , 07:54 PM
is raising 8762 bad from utg?

i dont know any regular in my games who opens 754 utg. the losest someone opens is maybe 8w2 or 862. should I stil fold 8w2? folding 762 now seems too tight.

edit: so you fold 8w2 from mp1 vs utg but call on bu and co?

edit 2: why do you suggest folding 762 in some lineups if a call with 8w2 is slightly +ev?

Last edited by SickZac; 10-31-2010 at 08:05 PM.
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
10-31-2010 , 08:06 PM
I'd play 8762 often as 762.
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
10-31-2010 , 08:13 PM
well if I get HU i would keep the 8 if it goes MW I would discard it...
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
10-31-2010 , 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SickZac
well if I get HU i would keep the 8 if it goes MW I would discard it...
having position and info on opponent would help me choose, but my prefered way is as falazure said, 762>8762 with 3 draws to go imo.
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
10-31-2010 , 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SickZac
is raising 8762 bad from utg?
If you are playing it as a draw to 8762 and your opponents don't make big mistakes post draw, yes. Playing it as 762 is probably okay but not at all necessary. I would sooner start routinely opening 72xxx with a pair or 754xx etc. from the BTN if I feel I need to open up my game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickZac
i dont know any regular in my games who opens 754 utg. the losest someone opens is maybe 8w2 or 862. should I stil fold 8w2? folding 762 now seems too tight.
You will sometimes find a creative player who makes remarkable decisions predraw. I have seen people play both 754 and hands such as 9653 as though they were the nuts predraw from UTG. It is a good idea to think about how you might adjust to such a player - loosening my range and playing rougher draws would usually be my first go-to adjustment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickZac
edit: so you fold 8w2 from mp1 vs utg but call on bu and co?

edit 2: why do you suggest folding 762 in some lineups if a call with 8w2 is slightly +ev?
Playing tightly when facing a raise from a tight range with people still to act who have position on you is a solid general strategy. Loosening up as it becomes less and less likely that you will not be last to act is an appropriate adjustment as your exposure to risk is reduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickZac
edit 2: why do you suggest folding 762 in some lineups if a call with 8w2 is slightly +ev?
A lot of the fundamental mistakes that you cannot avoid making with a hand like 762 or 8w2 involve making a second (or third) best hand and paying off on later streets. The most likely hands that you will hold when you make these mistakes are 87s (and more specifically, the rough 87s #13 though #18).

762 makes #2, #3, and #4, which will obviously be a very profitable thing to do. However, it also makes #14, #15 and #16, which can result in costly river bets going in if you are not well-informed about your opponents value-betting strategies.

8w2 will only rarely make these RIO hands because you start with neither a 7 or a 6. However, you will commonly make #5 through #13. Therefore, for a beginning player, I would say that 8w2 is easier to play and less likely to be costly in the long run.

If villain is either playing a wider range or snowing frequently then obviously both hands become playable. Furthermore, 762 becomes the much better hand because any hand #18 or better is always going to have substantial value and the value of making a 97 (instead of a 98) goes up. In heavily raked games, extracting thin value with rough hands is going to result in paying more rake than you need to for no additional profit so you might as well fold these hands as a default.
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
10-31-2010 , 10:19 PM
862 is about 8w2 is about 7w2 is stretching it a bit...

Opening UTG to draw to a terrible 8 when you have better options seems pretty bad to me as well.
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
11-01-2010 , 01:34 PM
so you prefer to have "only" 50% EQ instead of 57% because you can make better hands and you decrease your reverse implied odds?
(breaking the 8 in 8762 vs keeping it)

thank you jd_poker for your long reply. I ll reread it later on and comment on it.
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote
11-01-2010 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SickZac
so you prefer to have "only" 50% EQ instead of 57% because you can make better hands and you decrease your reverse implied odds?
(breaking the 8 in 8762 vs keeping it)
I am struggling to establish where you got these exact equities from? Did you do this against a weighted range?

I'm guessing this is comparing the equity of 8762 and 762 versus some other 1 card draw?
guy folded 8w2 vs utg in video,,, Quote

      
m