Hi all,

100/200, playing badeucy, we open QJ(754) in EP to $300 and next to act tag pro 3! to $400, two cold calls in SB and BB and I flat as well. Is this a reasonable utg open 7-handed?

($1600) 2,2,2,2. We don't improve at all (K,A). X to 3!ttor, $100, we all flat.

($2000) 1,1,2,1. We make an 8 dugi but no low (pair of 5s). X to us, we bet $200, next to act raises to $400, sb and bb call and we call as well.

($3600) 1,1,1,pat. We "improve" to a T low and it X to the 3!ttor who bets $200, SB calls bb folds and we call.

Thanks,
DT

You mean you raised to 200 and there was a 3! to 300 predraw?

Yes. Sorry but it’s highly confusing with the kill and different blind structures each game, and I lose track very easily.

Leading after 2nd draw seems terrible


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You had the 16th best possible tri preflop.

You ended up with the 31st best possible badugi on the river, 4-handed, in a pot that was 3! pre. We won't even get into where your T8754 ranks amongst best possible 2-7 hands.

I've told you before, and you apparently ignored it. I'll tell you again, and you'll probably continue to ignore it.

Try listing out the best possible tri hands and best possible badugis for this spot, and stop when you've reached your 754 tri from preflop and your 8754 badugi you made on the river. It'll help you visualize these spots you post about.

I think the problem here is you're bleeding bets with a hand that's likely to be, at best, second best/second best.

You brick the first draw and still call vs. 3 others, one of them being the TAG pro who 3! pre and has position on you? Where do you think all the low cards are? Hint, hint, a lot of them are in the hands of your three opponents. 15 cards between them and 6 new cards after the discard between them. Pretty good chance a lot of your outs are dead amongst those 21 cards.


I think if you can get away from spots like this post, then you are fine opening this hand preflop first to act at a 7-handed table. It has good potential to make a really good 2-7 hand (it can make #1 or #4) and good potential to make a good badugi (#8 and #9 best badugis it can make).

If you have trouble getting away from these spots where it's pretty clear you're beat both ways, and you're going to bleed chips/bets because of this, then maybe just fold this hand preflop.

432
532
542
543
632
642
643
652
653
654
732
742
743
752
753
754 - 16th



5432
6432
6532
6542
6543
7432
7532
7542
7543
7632
7642
7643
7652
7653
7654
8432
8532
8542
8543
8632
8642
8643
8652
8653
8654
8732
8742
8743
8752
8753
8754 - 31st

Thank you! I just read somewhere any three card offsuit wheel cards were utg opens which was why I opened this. I guess I need to let it go without improvement though.

Fold pre, bad open.

2 is king in 2-7, and more so with the dugi added.

Even if this hand is somehow an expert open, which i very much doubt, you should play tighter if you are not at that level.

It's not an open in triple draw, but I might play it in badeucy because the 3 low cards you are playing are a tri, and that isn't so easy to make predraw. Maybe that is wrong.

So in badeucy, the A doesn't count as low for the dugi part?

I think most places, it does not. Nut nut would be 7(5432).

It counts, its just the highest rank, and you want the lowest. K dugi beats A dugi.

So I was right, it doesn't count "as low".

Not to pick a fight, but no

Technicaly
[Aaaa]k is still a low in 2-7 triple draw, even though it it the worst possible low

Any a hand like akqj9 still beats any pair

Not to pick a fight with you not picking a fight...but I think he just worded it weirdly...

Seems he meant to ask if A's are the lowest card possible for the badugi side in baduecey. Which, no, they are not. Like you and I pointed out, 2's are lowest card possible and A's are highest card possible for the badugi half in baduecey.

Exactly this.
A counts as a high card. I know you can still make a "low" with it.

A royal is the worst possible low. BOOM ;-)

not for nothing but i'm reminded of the time i saw a smaller boat beat a bigger boat in 2-7

Is there some information on badeucy and badacy opening hands. What are the chances of being dealt on tri all cards 7 or less? I would open this also. You have a tri, and the 7 is the next lowest card to the 6 for tris. You also have a 7, which is a key card in 2-7. How often are you going to be dealt a better tri for both badugi and 2-7? You mention 654 is a better tri, but it is much worse for 2-7. I would probably play it too. In this game 2-wheel card might be playable as a 3-card-draw.

The issue is tri-dugis can have a lot of showdown in badeucey/badacey/similar variants, so starting without not only a 2 but also a 3 is bad for both initial equity AND playability

Ignoring some of your other questions because they would be harder for me to answer

654 can be both playable and good in badeucey, which is counterintuitive, though i think like 754 it can be dangerous or bad UTG opener [and op was 7 handed not 6]

I almost view it as a better opener than 754 but that is a very complicated and possibly wrong evaluation, better for dugi draw, worse for low draw

Learn how to count combos

Think through how often in theory we should be opening from various positions

Assess values of tris in terms of their badugi and 2-7 values, and take weighted average. Doesn’t have to be 50/50

Using all of above you can create opening standards that are quite abit better than just guessing or asking random people what they think is right

I did some simulations and you all are probably right. You get enough good hands not to play 467 UTG.

I played badeucy in lowish stakes mixed and played really lose predraw, because I made so much in that round, as other people made mistakes on what to draw and so on. So I probably have too loose an idea of what are playable hands.

Card removal in these triple draw games is crucial. When 4 people see the first draw for 3 bets, your hand goes WAY down in value.

But don't their hands go down also. Maybe a 1-card draw goes up in value and something like (23) goes down in value.

You are referencing multiple concepts in a confusing way.

Hands can be viewed in terms of raw equity, showdown value, and playability.

Card removal affects all three but 754 doesn't necessarily get upgraded. The biggest change is rough 8s and 9s go up a lot in value because most of the premium low cards are all ready in use by the current players.

754 may actually get downgraded because if Hero can't get a 2, not only does he have no chance at the nuts, but he is also a lot more likely to make straights for the low side. Note 754 doesn't give Hero great visibility into villain's starting hand/ranges either.

(23)xxx can be a pretty decent starting hand in badeucy because even if it starts outgunned it can improve quickly, has high playability and also implied odds. Just like in hold em even the worst Ax hands can be very powerful and still make very nutty hands.