As what sort of animal am I supposed to envision my opponent when their turn raising range is polarized between monsters and total bluffs, and they don't bet-fold for thin value on the river?

Interesting replies here......I have been taking HH notes for a year now, to use with my coach. As long as I'm not in a hand its no big deal. Casinos have different rules but all that Ive been in allow texting as long as your not in the current hand
I even have asked people at the table sometimes if I dont remember the exact flop cards....most will help ! I Just use the the "notes" app on my iTouch....looks like I'm texting but whats the difference if i'm not....why should i care if some one sees what I'm doing? I try not to let someone see what my whole cards were but other than that......
If players figure out what I'm doing , they usually either start differing to me more, or think I'm an idiot and think they can start pulling **** on me and lose even more money.
Normally I try not to tell people things that will help them become better players, but I could tell people that taking HH at the table will improve your game tremendously until I'm blue in the face and most still wont do it ....which is fine with me

Isn't this the problem with taking notes: you can't keep an eye on the action?

We should be watching nearly every hand so we can:

• range villains
• identify tells
• confirm tells and ranging at showdowns

I know this is dam obvious But, taking notes is laborious, and you definitely lose a sense of "game-flow".

If you recite the details of significant hands to yourself a few times, you should be able to remember enough information for hand analysis at home. Also, analysing a hand with a poker buddy in the aftermath will help you remember the details. If you don't have any poker buddies, just create imaginary friends (who'll agree with everything you say).

In the end, the more you stress the value of observation at the table, the more likely you are to remember what's important. It's a good way of de-cluttering your brain, too.

So, thumbs down to note-taking, in my book, because we're robbing Peter to pay Paul

DrTJO,
I literally started playing NLTH a year and a half ago ( for real money in a casino ), so I might slow down with taking HH at some point in the future, but it has enabled me, and my coach to see exactly whats going on in my game down to the smallest betting mistakes.
As for missing the action, at first yes, i would miss some things because I was fumbling around trying to take down the HH, but now if I play a hand, I'll start entering it in my iTouch as soon as its over, and most of the time I'm done by the time I have to look at my next two cards ( action is on me ). So I dont miss a thing, It took a while to get good at it so I include ALL info, stack sizes, positions, villain tendencies, etc. In a 6 hour session , I'll end up with 10-13 worthy HH.
Isn't this what has made online players so much better than the average live player...the ability to go back and see exactly how they played every hand?

I'm not saying that analysis isn't valuable. Obviously, if we want to improve our games, we need to analyse our sessions. And if we don't have the data, we can't really analyse much. So, we agree in this respect.

What I'm talking about is how our method of collecting the data may reduce our ability to observe player tendencies, such as physical tells, use of position, bet-sizing, semi-bluffing etc., not to mention overall game dynamics. This kind of information is crucial to winning live and should not be compromised. The fact that think it's okay that you have enough time to "look at your two cards" suggests you're not watching your opponents as closely as you should.

Finally, online players aren't necessarily better than live players. They just play a game in which observation plays a different role. For them, it's a matter of working out what stats are most relevant and then to filter the data accordingly. Live players, on the other hand, are privy to a bunch of information online players literally cannot see. Effectively, if you're spending your time taking notes and only looking at your cards, then aren't you playing half blind? This is like playing without a HUD online

Im not a live player, but i guess it shouldn't be a problem to take notes after you have played, since it takes too much focuss while playing. Also there is no need to note complete hands imo. Just be aware of players tendencies. In contrast to online games you have to remember just a table full of players, so it wouldn't be a problem to make some kind of protocoll after your session.

I once tryied to use my phone as a holecam, but the dealer saw it and told me stop immediately.(obvious recording red light on the phone gave me away).
People on the table were like : 'Why would you film the table?'
It was a lil bit akward

Notes are good for some players I guess...

But from what I see when I play, I have a player labeled as horrible terrible donkey that plays only garbage hands and then all of a sudden later in the session I see that same player winning pot after pot while holding the nuts.

So...my point here is...that even donks get good cards and smash flops sometimes too.

So I don't really recommend calling a donks all in just because you seen him shove J 10 when all he had was middle pair 3 hands in a row.

Stats are good but they are not failproof.

I just say play solid poker and don't worry about what donkey x 999 player did 3 hands ago.

seems there are two different things going on in this thread.....notes that are taken on other players and their tendencies....and Hand History notes...my comments are on HH notes taken on how I played my hands......

What I like about your note-taking is that it commits you to analysing hands away from the table. By collecting all that data, you give yourself plenty of opportunity to fix your leaks.

Do you include player profiling in your notes? Seems mandatory to me, as I've already suggested.

It would be great to use an application that helped you record VPIP and other relevant data with short-hand at the table. I mean, wafting through all the texted or tweeted info is little time-consuming after the session. And, to be honest, I can see a lot of players not analysing the data at all. If this data was already organized in a HUD format, the analysis would be much more efficient.

By the way spleeft, check out this thread on LLSNL from a few months back:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...sults-1196436/

I have a "poker journal" that i right down hands in and notes that I keep in my backpack or whatever or in my car when on trips. When i take a break I do it away from the table, write stuff down etc, I also have incredible recall (which means I should be a better player than I am lol) so often times I don't even need it and can remember when I get back to the book, or can write while eating etc.

Using my phone to email myself like many others have said is what I do. Never at the table, although I've never seen someone told not to do it, it's obviously not something you want to do for many reasons.

I include very short notations on player profiles if needed, like " young agg" or "older nit" and sometimes more descriptive notations when needed. Mainly I think its important to record Stack sizes, postions, and exact preflop action ,( like number of limpers, etc). And later I'll edit the HH to be readable, and I'll also put in the pot sizes, and other things I rebember about certain Villians. I guess your point about missing action is valid if i were to try and record everything all at once at the table, so I just record the vitals like card suits,stack sizes, and exact bet sizes. Most of the time when i go back and edit the HH , I see the betting mistakes, and what not .
And most of the time I find a HH that , say Ive won, and most would think was just a standard HH ,( like raise a few limpers, and c-bet the flop when checked to me, and take it down ), but when you really look at tthe bet sizing and flop texture you can see that was probably an even better way to play the hand.
Even the HH's in that thread , ( that are very sparse and missing lots of info ), are showing people how bad they are playing in certain spots !

Tonight I saw a player who was very explicitly and frequently taking notes at the table. He was using paper and pen. Nobody objected.

Thinking about adopting this myself.

Do you believe the note-taking affected the way this player was perceived by the rest of the table? What I mean is that, while there were no objections, some might have steered clear of him because they'd think "gee, this guy really knows what's going on". I generally take the the view that any behaviour that inhibits others having a good time is likely to be detrimental to win-rates, insofar as players might become too serious, analytical and nitty.

I honestly don't think anyone besides me even bothered to notice!

He was back tonight, taking notes again. I pointed it out to another player who was right next to him, and he hadn't even noticed, much less cared.

I'm amazed at how oblivious some people can be to everyone else at the table...

The other night one guy moved from one end of the table to the other (moving towards the blinds), and the lady now in the seat next to him asked why the "new" player wasn't being required to post!

I gave her a look and said, "Are you serious??" As a heart attack she was...

What you describe is quite an insight, really, into table dynamics. As an aside, not meaning to derail this thread, but, what do these players actually notice?

Here's a provisional list:

• Their cards
• The flop
• The bet
• The turn
• The bet
• The river
• The bet

So, what do they notice about us?

• Our age
• Our gender
• Our accent
• Our hairstyle
• Our clothes

So much for reverse tells, ranges, bet-sizing, HH, stack-size, c-bet %, 3-bet% etc.,

fwiw, I've played with a few players who were obviously taking notes. and they've been terrible every time.

Why not just take notes whenever you take a break? It's not that difficult to remember all the interesting hands that happen in a 1-2 hour time frame.

This.

And you look like a major wierdo taking notes.

You look like a major weirdo wearing hoodie, shades, & niise-canceling cans. Doesn't in itself make it a bad idea.

it's cold, bright and loud in those cardrooms. You want me to freeze, damage my eyesight and lose my hearing?

If you want notes for a current session I think notes on your phone is the best way...As for hands to review for a later time, I use a digital recorder. I just get up and talk into it. No one has ever said and anything.

june 23rd 4:47pm

Flop came 3 spades, similar to last hand, suspicious. Note to self: Play more spades

You only have 8-9 others at the table so I've never really thought of it to be that hard to put a mental note on players. Unless you are playing 5/10 and above it really isn't necessary to do, players are coming in and out so fast and I think its pretty easy to spot someone who is a descent player within 5 min of them coming to the table.

this is hysterical. made me actually lol