But can you build a bankroll while paying your monthly expenses?

I think that's very tough to do, especially if you're living somewhere expensive, like the Bay Area or LA.

Maybe if you live in your parents' basement, don't pay health insurance, don't pay taxes on your earnings, and/or live on rice and beans. (Of course I recognize that these characteristics describe a large proportion of 2p2 dwellers.)

^ I moved to AC with 15k, that's it. I built my roll by working during the day and playing at a local card room at night. I was in my 20s, single and no expenses. Here's the breakdown of my first year with expenses.

Rent- 700$
Car+insurance-500$
Cell-90$
No health insurance, didn't play any taxes. That's pretty much it

I tried to never spend more then 2k a month on everything. I lived very modest, didn't really go out much, didn't buy anything nice. Woke up, went to gym, went to borgata. Took the occasional day off and that's it. If you look at any succesful person they have made sacrifices, worked lomg hours for little pay, etc. living on 2k a month for a year isn't really a huge sacrifice if you ask me.

Take my situation now. I'm married, kid, pay taxes, health insursnce , retirement savings etc. luckily my wife makes a pretty good wage, if I had to rebuild I could get away with only spending 2k out of my poker money , I would just be putting less money into other savings accounts

Edit: forgot to add this is at 40$ an hour

If you figure an 80k a year job nets 65k, that extra 15k covers most of the added benefits (assuming the poker player pays minimal taxes, which in most cases he does) also many 80k a year jobs top out at 200k at the very most , prob closer to 150k. I'm talking about the majority of jobs,of course u Could make the argument xyz job will make more, but going by census number a good 2/5+ player is making way more then average. I'm not trying to say poker is the best job a available , just an viable option. Also don't forget if a person is playing for a living i would
Think after a year tney would be playing in bigger games, now ur looking at 80 an hour and possible playing 10/25 games .

JerseyPoker869, I think you're confusing two threads of conversation. Calli and LD are talking about the possibility of building up from lower limits. Since most players don't just go to the bank and draw out a living pro's BR in hopes that they can quit work, people have to start somewhere.
Let's accept for the moment that LHE under 10/20 just cannot be beaten for any hourly due to rake. 1/2NL in most places can. Agree, that people starting from no BR and trying to make one tend to make very little hourly. At some point, they're also investing in the confidence that they can beat the games, learning the skills to do so, and the like. Honestly, most people who did go pro ran hot giving them both the BR infusion and the confidence to do so. Some very few BR nits did play for a significant sample, and even though we call them rational, we know they were the minority.

I know this is your hot button. They were talking about BR building, and you're using numbers for established/winning pro players. Still, in the spirit of fun kidding... A) who would even bother get dressed and leave the house for only $40/hour? B) You realize that you need to discount your $40/hour by half to compare it to a solid job with benefits? Thus, we're looking for $50K/year jobs to compare to your $100K of poker income.

C) Poker players tend to ignore their own costs. You have to invest the time/money to learn to play. That's just like going to college or trade school. You have this nice big (I hope it is big) chunk of cash sitting around that you can't spend.

D) Hours at the table. 2000 hours of play to get your earn. Nice. How much extra time do you sit on lists, lobby, drive to the other casino to find the good mid-stakes game you need, etc? A guy who actually gets his 2000 hours of his seat time spends what, 2500 at the casino?

Figure out what you want and work to it. I think you'd be surprised. I'm a consultant. I have to find new jobs all the time, so maybe having the skill I underestimate the difficulty for other people. Getting work is a skill, and getting through the dysfunctional interviewing process is part of that. Still, I have a ton of respect for people who can run their own poker business. I really do think those people could apply the same discipline/smarts to tons of other stuff and they'd do really well. It is a compliment. It wasn't my idea, originally. Abdul or Izmet started the saying, as I recall.
Ah yes, the under-disclosed value of being a tax cheat. That's a young man's game. I believe that each pro I know pays all of his taxes. Could be wrong, but I believe they do. Can we agree to leave "doesn't pay taxes" out of the discussion? Let's just assume that people do pay taxes correctly.

Lmao I make 18/hr in Florida at my job which I hate..so even with costs if I could make forty bucks an hour playing poker and could do that consistently even if I never made more than forty an hour I would do it lol

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I said nothing about monthly expenses. I meant a recreational player who can essentially have fun for free.

I believe 6/12 at the Oaks (10-handed, $4 NFND) can be beaten. That is, so long as one could seed a 6/12 bankroll, one can move up indefinitely given infinite time. Of course, there are faster ways, but for most recreational players, the mere fact that someday they could be a multithousandaire is good enough.

I assume Doug is kidding. $40/hr is a good job. I assume he is not so balla that he is literally not getting out of bed for that.

He's probably saying that your dreams should be bigger. If this is your life goal, your goals should be like, "I want to be a Bobby's room reg and win the 50k HORSE," not "under ideal circumstances I will be able to grind out a median income if I commit felony tax evasion."

Idk, I doubt 4/8 can build a bankroll anywhere. Maybe 8/16 is OK in some places with lower rake. 6/12 certainly seems borderline.

But none of this is anything like online was. You could literally start with a deposit bonus playing the absolute lowest level of poker and build your way up without ever putting in more money. You just can't do that live.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

I believe that is true, because I'm beating it for just around 1BB/hr over 1400+ hours.

If you can maintain a $5,000 BR, you can play this game for a pretty good long time with minimal RoR.

But you're only making $12/hr. If you play 50hrs/week for 50 weeks a year (which is a lot), you're making $30k/year pre-tax.

I personally would not call that a "decent living", especially in the Bay Area. You'd have to live in a hole in the wall w/no health insurance and spend very little money on food/transportation/entertainment/cable/internet/etc.

Possible? Yes. Desirable? Not for most people.

It does come with a lot of freedom though.

I agree that you can build a BR if you work during the day.


Did you eat?

Did you pay for electricity or heating? Did you have an internet connection? Did you buy things, like clothes, shoes, a computer, or a TV?

With no health insurance, what would have happened if you'd had a serious accident, and ended up with thousands of dollars in medical bills?

^ let me re-phrase that. I built up my 15k working during the day and playing at a local club. Then moved to AC when I had no right playing for a living. Young and dumb I guess. I rented a room in a house on the beach. Lived with 4 other guys in a very large house and only paid 700$ all included. It was a great deal, it was a million dollar beach house in brigantine. Then I had my car and my cell. Of course i ate and bought things but that's why I said I really tried to limit my self to 2k a mont FOR EVERYTHING. No health insursnce, that's a personal choice. Everyone has their own circumstance I guess, it's their decison to be made. Bottom line is a player can do 40$ an hour at 2/5, if that's something u wanna go for then do it. Now if someone thinks they can play 1/2 and make 300$ a day I want to warn you it's not gonna happen. A person needs to weight the pros and cons specific to their situation. Coming from someone who's doing it, the grass is always greener. Sometimes I wish I had a regular job, more stability etc but I know myself, after 5 weeks I would wanna kill myself and quit

$2,000 / month is super balla. Geez, in grad school (in the metro SF Bay Area to boot) the stipend was $15,000 / year and one of my friends paid off $40,000 in college loans over 5 years. The dude aimed for like $500 / month or something absurd like that - sharing a tiny apartment in a terible neighborhood, eating expired food from the grocery outlet, and being super antisocial (aside from our weekly BBQ he went out maybe 5 times total to do anything with anyone and frankly 3 of those were with 1 girl).

So yeah, it can be done, but it's a really ****ty way to live. The whole "wouldn't get out of bed for $40/hr" comment is not about some physical or otherwise actual constraint where one will spend so much should he get out of bed that, literally, he is better off in bed. It's about the attitude that grinding out 2,000 hours of $40/hr poker is a great goal. That should be the baseline, like, "I've been playing recreationally for 3,000 hours and have been averaging $40/hr. I've saved a bankroll and want to give pro a shot, with the goal of improving my winrate for this game to $50/hr and then moving up limits for a $60-100 / hr win rate."

I've been living off about $1400 a month for the past 2 years as I grind out my AAS. It. ****ing. sucks. It sucks even more as I'm older and was living the 'good life' before the great recession, but my career change is not what this thread is about.

I've seen dozens of threads like this over the years and no offense Cally, but they are always filled with people like you and Comboprof who aren't happy with anything less than 150k. Good for you I guess, but that you would try to present that as a goal to strive for just doesn't add up.

Why does someone need to work towards a $80/hr wr? That's $144k @ 1800 hours. Again, not everyone has caviar tastes, 8 kids, etc. Would I like to make that money from poker/a job? Duh. Is it a necessary goal to shoot for to retire at a decent age and live comfortably? God no.

Which brings us back to half that, $72000. $6000 per month. Take out - I'm being wildly conservative here - $2500 for taxes and insurance and that's still more of a net than I made when I worked in Manhattan at a job I loathed with every fiber of my being.
There is some kind of disconnect here with you folks who are arguing $40/hr playing poker is some kind of nightmarish existence, and I would love to know what it is.

I'll say it again for the cheap seats: it is NOT easy to get paid that kind of money without degrees, connections, substantial social skills, and luck.

A final point that people are not making about ye olde 9-5: when is anyone going to factor in the massive ot that you have to work there at times - and once you hit 40k+, you're often salaried - to say nothing of the commute, taking your job home with you, etc.

This isn't so clear cut.

First I'm snobby with 80k, then I'm underestimating 100k, now I'm not satisfied with 150k?

I've stated that I think a $50k job is fine. Half the country gets by on that. A $72k salary feeds a family of four. (It is approximately what a BS-level chemist makes at my company. It is a good job, albeit with a low glass ceiling.)

The question is what level of winnings is equivalent to a $50k salary. And the answer is around $100k. Variance-filled winnings is not comparable to a guaranteed paycheck from a stable company. And you can't use all your winnings or your ROR goes to 100%.

People keep thinking that a $40k job is equal to $40k winnings. It's not even close.

Plus, you will find anecdotally that 2,000 hr/yr is ambitious. Most pros get in 1,000-1,500 - a combination of good games not always running, and it just being damn hard to A game that much.

So usually the plan of 40/hr x 2k hrs = 80k winnings = 80k salary winds up as the reality of 25/hr x 1.6k hr = 40k winnings = 20k salary.

This isn't snobbery because booyah im so balla that I wipe my ass with hundos. This is an honest economic comparison. Most people grossly overestimate what is possible with poker. If you can make the equivalent of a $50k salary, I submit you are a rock star.

Actually, the parallels to rock stardom are pretty good. Most aspiring garage bands probably have big hopes of making it big. Most will overestimate their skill and earning potential. Most underestimate how much work, even logistical and financial, it will tAke to be successful. But seeing the handful of examples of people who effortlessly made it to the top will fuel their dreams.

I can't call you snobby for anything. If you want 150k, then good for you; it's too subjective (and rude) to suggest that makes you a snob. But that is the argument you made, and $80 was only the average. You said $60-100k. I know why you made it, and I'll get to that shortly.

I do give you that your winnings have to be factored into keeping your bankroll fat and healthy - I didn't consider that. Good point. If that is where you are deriving the 100k number from, then I don't even think I have a valid counter-argument. Quick seat-of-pants guessing math:

taxes 30k
insurance 10k (assume the super-balla plan)

Now we are down to 60k net obviously. So how do you account for br fatness? Call it 2k a month, I guess. 25k a year growth on your bankroll? Probably low, I'm sure. But work with me here.

So 3k a month. That's substantially less than when I was making 55k a year, so yeah, your point becomes clear. And no, I do not assume 40k winnings = 40k salary; save that for the neophytes, good sir.
My point is that once you factor in overtime, loss of autonomy, and joy de vivre (I left out douchey people and monotony as washes), I would go for the poker 'job' in a second if I could. That 50k job you keep referencing isn't 50k either! When I was making the middling bucks, I figured between o/t and commuting, I was really making the equivalent of about 40k. That wasn't worth it either.

I think we are on the same side for the most part. I just get so sick of the point "well if you can make that much at poker, you can make that much at another job" because often, it's a total crock of ****.

Ultimately, the answer to the OP is "sure but you need amazing skills and most will fail spectacularly". Rock star life indeed. Personally, the best I can hope for is a job in my field with as few hours as possible so that I can play on the side. Health insurance is frighteningly expensive, I am getting older, and I highly doubt I am in that 1% of 1% who possesses the tools necessary to play for a living. So believe me, I understand.

I know lawyers who make crap money, dr. Who make less then 60k, construction guys who make millions, etc. if your good enough you'll make it, if not you won't. Maybe your good enough to make a modest living. It's like any profession

Been there.

When I moved out here for grad school, I literally had $1,000 to my name, and a $10k/yr stipend.

I got a really crappy studio apt on San Pablo Ave in Berkeley for $325/month. I bounced the first rent+deposit check, and had to take a cash advance on my brand-new credit card to cover it.

I shopped at the canned-food outlet store a block away, eating spaghetti and butter, or sometimes with tomato sauce out of a giant jar. To get drunk, I bought 1.75 ltr bottles of Popov vodka from the liquor store across the street.

No car of course; I rode the bus up the hill to campus for class every morning.

The funny thing is, it was one of the more enjoyable and rewarding times of my life. I was completely independent; did not need to ask for a dime from my parents. And I was making something of myself.

Of course, I was only 21 then; if I had to live like that after the age of 25 or so, and I wasn't doing something worthwhile, I probably would have slit my wrists.

Oh I intend to find out; I'm just going to be super-careful, take it very slow, and study incredibly hard.

It was definitely being young and on your own. I'm 39, and this is hard.

Except that in most other professions, you have the chance to contribute something positive to the world. And there's a lot to be said for having a sense of self-worth.

As much as I love poker, it's a meaningless way to spend your life. Even a **** job at Walmart results in a greater contribution to society.

Go talk to some of the 60-yr-old props who've been hanging around for the last 20 years. Ask them how fulfilling it's been. Do they seem like happy, well-adjusted individuals? Or do they strike you as bitter and cynical?

Oh jesus, not the self-worth argument again. Invalid. Horrible. Here's why: what do you do? Unless you're actively helping out for a non-profit every day, that argument holds zero merit as all you're doing in most professions is making your employer money. I can and will further destroy that old nag of an argument with one simple point - why can't you take the money/free time poker would offer and use it to help people?

You have the right to voice your opinions, I suppose. But the question was "can you make a living", not "am I a scumball?" Furthermore,you are going to bolster your point with tales of how some old men are unhappy degens? Ugh.

Just keep the moral-based opinionated trash out of it, please.

1. Many people pick their profession based on money, not enjoyment or bettering society
2. Tnere many meaningless jobs tnat inadvertently help/better society. Go ask a poker dealer or floor man. Also there's many 'respected' professions that actually harm society
3. I guess it's a personal thing. If you wanna dedicate your life to feedng the poor go for it but don't give me some BS how a janitor or garbage man is some honorable job helping society. Nothing wrong with those jobs, but it's a paycheck , that's it.

I feel like this thread gets pulled in so many directions. The facts are at 1/2 NL it seems a good player can do 20$ an hour. At 2/5 40$ an hour. At 5/10 80$ an hour . Those are the realistic numbers for earning potential. So if those numbers work for you go for it. Now once we get that out of the way tneres a million other topics we can discuss i.e variance , money management ,bills etc.
Any self employed person has to worry about retirement/benefits etc.

Sup Grocery Outlet buddy.

That's the point. You can make A living - you can exist. Many of us have; many people in this country do.

The OP asked about a DECENT living. That is, something you can do long-term and reasonably accomplish what most people expect to accomplish - have a car, buy a house, have kids, buy name brand cereal, etc. And that's a lot harder to do with poker (or music, or sports, to be fair) than people realize.

I don't work for a non-profit. I don't work for a private employer either. I'm not going to get into what I do for a living, but suffice it to say that you seem to have a pretty limited imagination.

LOL. It's hard enough to earn enough money to support yourself with poker. I can afford to give away a lot more money on my salary than I could playing poker, believe me.

But even if I didn't give away a dime, I spend my days providing a pretty valuable service to society. Maybe you've never had a meaningful job, but I have, and I do now -- and I have to tell you, it makes life a lot more satisfying and worthwhile.

It's a consideration totally apart from morality. Even from a totally selfish standpoint, I'm a lot happier when I'm doing something meaningful. Most people are, if they're lucky enough to have that opportunity.

Agree 100%.