Question from the hand that busted me out...

You're sitting with 2900 chips, average stack 13-14K. Structure is 100 ante, 200 bring-in, 500-1000 bets. Table is full with 8 players.


Face card brings-in, then four players fold to you. You're holding (baby baby) 9 and looking at a 6 and then a wheel card yet to act. Your draw is neither particularly live nor dead. The player to your left with the 6 is playing lots of hands and capable of raising with a two-card hand. The player after him, with a wheel card, is playing very tight.


I decided to complete, figuring that I'm at worst about a 3:2 dog against a strong hand, but the guy to my left may even raise and isolate against me with paint in the hole.

But I'm wondering in retrospect whether I had enough chips to wait for a better spot.

(As it played out, the 6 had a monster starting hand and made an 8 to beat the Ten that I made, knocking me out.)

I don't think you are in a terrible spot to gamble (card wise) but a real problem here is that you don't have enough to get all in on 3rd or 4th unless someone is willing to raise along with you. And you don't really have enough chips to really play a hand, either (you'll likely have no real bluffing opportunities and your opponent if he is smart will see he has no RIO so he'll take worse draws to showdown)

It's a little bit like how in holdem, small pocket pairs are good hands to play if you have a regular stack or a tiny stack, but not very good hands if you have a small-medium stack (a stack you can't logically get all in)

I'd probably have tried to let it go and look for stealing opportunities

29 antes, that's a fold. If you could get all-in for the completion or maybe two small bets then I'd have done as you did. Your hand invites aggression, so you'll essentially never steal the antes unless both remaining villains have pure nothing.

When you're super short on chips you get a terrific price to see all the cards even with a weak hand, so the shorter you are, the lighter you should be getting it in, assuming you can get in on 3rd st. An example somebody used to explain it to me was that if you could get all-in for your ante chip you'd be printing money with anything better than three random cards. Here I think you have enough antes to wait for a better hand, assuming you'll be getting all-in directly.

what about limping here? I'd have to think about this more than I'm willing to right now,
but folding seems bad at first thought.

Fold>Limp>Complete IMO.

Only benefit of limping is that you risk less to learn that you could have stolen the antes anyhow. Big drawback is that the B-I can now bluff you or actually dominate you if he catches low, but wouldn't have defended to an open.

Throw it away.

Nobody with me here?

Complete>Fold>Limp

Interesting thread OP, and I like electrical's initial analysis. I take issue with your final claim here tho, that the bring-in wouldn't have defended a hand like (7-7-)Q vs. Hero's open if the other players folded. Both good players and bad would probably defend in a spot like that. Hero is exploitable by a bluff however when outflopped on 4th.

If ghe 6 is aggro like you say he is he'll probably raise 3rd which is good for you and you can get 1500-2000(or even 2500) of your 3k stack in. I don't mind a fold but in real time it jwould be hard for me to fold this

In my mind, this is a stack size question, and I think Rusty and electrical both addressed that.

This hand is quite obviously playable in some situations as a complete and in others as a limp -- the question is whether it's advisable to play it with 29 antes, and how the aggro player to my left affects that.

On the one hand, the aggro player may raise me with a worse hand, which argues to get it in here, and he limits future stealing opportunities, which also argues to get it in here.

On the other hand, I think within another 10 hands or so, there's a pretty decent shot I will get dealt a more playable hand. But if and when that happens, (A) I may not be the first one into the pot, and (B) my stack is going to be even less of a threat. I didn't mention in the original post, because it's of only minor concern, but limits were going up to 600-1200 on the next hand, meaning that I'll be under 2 big bets in just a few hands.

I do slightly regret not reraising (even jamming) 3rd. I flat called the raise from the 6, which left me exploitable on 4th if he caught better, as SG suggested. We both caught equal paint on 4th, which pretty much ensured the hand was going to showdown, but I hate being results-oriented that way.

He doesn't need a hand that good to dominate. (92)Q3 v (7-7-)9K, stuff like that happens too. Giving the B-I a free shot at all those scenarios is a problem, and unless you just hold your nose and get the money in regardless, you also become bluffable, as I said.

77Q would be a good defense by the bringin if the two babies had folded?
I have never played razz in a tourney situation, but I can't understand how that would be a good defense here; would love to be enlightened. (No sarcasm here, I might play in a HORSE event.)

I agree giving the BI a free shot is problematic, just that you shouldn't expect the BI to fold his entire range if Hero completes.
Immediate pot odds can be deceiving, but the BI would be getting 5:1 on a call here and would have at least 34% equity unless his hand had some dead outs. If villain had a stronger door card you can have pretty poor implied odds, but his weakness is in sight (just as your is) and a 9 isn't much better than a Q in reality (not just based on hot/cold pot equity).

wait what am I missing here? (77)Q i don't think its a defending hand in this spot at all ever. If the hero completes with a 9 its pretty obvious given his chip stack he's lookin to get it in. with a 6 and a wheel card behind you should be giving him credit for 3 to a 9 with 2 decent baby cards so he's playing a 3 card hand and the (77)Q is essentially a 1 card hand.

I don't post much but read a lot of the threads and I gotta say SGspecial is somebody whose analysis I really respect. so Im kinda embarressed about expressing disagreement here but I'm lost in this regard.

as to the original question, I personally think with 29 ante's, unable to get it in on 3rd street, that the fold was the correct play.

What you're missing is that we're not discussing the exact hand (77)Q but the hand (7-7-)Q using the ProPokerTools Razz syntax.

(7-7-)Q refers to two unpaired cards 7 or under along with a Queen.

EDIT: adding propokertools equity simulations...

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
(7-7-)Q	34.47%	206,630	423
329	65.53%	392,947	423

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation

18,265,297,050 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
77Q	15.79%	2,883,326,945	1,735,263
329	84.21%	15,380,234,842	1,735,263

Thanks for clarifying JB. Looks like chillrob missed that too, and then I missed the fact that he missed it...

Ooh, I certainly did not know that, and this all makes a bit more sense now.

Now I do see the that the minus signs were significant, but I read this forum pretty regularly and didn't know that was standard notation so thought you were referring to a hand with a pair of 7s in the hole.

3BB is a huge stack in limit tourneys, just play normal. You don't need to deviate from normal play until you have only 1.5BB.

I wouldn't say huge unless your playing for play chips on stars or the nugget series. But even being wsop event, at 3bb I wouldn't deviate much. I had much more success at wsop Than I did at the other series around town this summer

The big difference between having 3 BB and having 4-5 BB is whether or not you will be making/facing a bet on the river. Most of your implied odds in razz occur on the river, so rough hands benefit from getting all-in before that but smooth drawing hands can't take advantage of them.

Coming from a school of not razz games, I'm kind of surprised at the fold mentions just b/c it seems like it's unlikely you'll get a better spot than this before losing a decent chunk of your stack (you really shouldn't fold say the next 8 hands in a row) b/c you'll basically need to make a hand to get back to where you are now. One of the small cards being abnormally tight as well I think I'm raising/getting it in too and hoping for the best.

Don't really agree with "stealing opportunities" either as I generally find (caveat, don't know about this particular tournament) that people HATE to fold vs short stacks and will look you up with hands they really shouldn't ever call anyway but they will still end up beating you a decent % of the time.

That said I don't play razz much so carry on. Just noted my slight surprise coming from playing other games.

I'd have to presume a lot of the fold comments are just from wsop events likely being soft and there's a reasonable chance that better spot happens.