This is part of an 8 game mix...I am strong in some of the games but more playing for experience than profit.


I think I might have played many streets wrong here but not sure.

Is 3rd street wrong because it gives my hand away?

Is 5th possibly a raise? Can NoraFlums call on 5th be correct?

Is 7th wrong because obv he is paired and I have 2 of the 3 pairs board locked? Or is it ok because he might fold a worse 7 when raised and will always reraise when he has me?




PokerStars Game #33565722633: 8-Game (Razz Limit, $100/$200 USD) - 2009/10/02 21:26:57 ET
Table 'Pirola IV' 6-max
Seat 1: thorladen ($8523 in chips)
Seat 2: yuvee04 ($8430 in chips)
Seat 3: MazeOrBowie ($5994.75 in chips)
Seat 4: BOBALOB ($1658.50 in chips)
Seat 5: glosik ($2500 in chips)
Seat 6: NoraFlum ($6445 in chips)
BOBALOB: posts the ante $25
glosik: posts the ante $25
NoraFlum: posts the ante $25
thorladen: posts the ante $25
yuvee04: posts the ante $25
MazeOrBowie: posts the ante $25
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to thorladen [Kd]
Dealt to yuvee04 [4d]
Dealt to MazeOrBowie [4s Ac 5c]
Dealt to BOBALOB [6s]
Dealt to glosik [9c]
Dealt to NoraFlum [As]
thorladen: brings in for $25
yuvee04: raises $75 to $100
MazeOrBowie: raises $100 to $200
BOBALOB: folds
glosik: folds
NoraFlum: raises $100 to $300
thorladen: folds
yuvee04: calls $200
MazeOrBowie: calls $100
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to yuvee04 [4d] [7d]
Dealt to MazeOrBowie [4s Ac 5c] [Js]
Dealt to NoraFlum [As] [Th]
yuvee04: bets $100
MazeOrBowie: calls $100
NoraFlum: calls $100
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to yuvee04 [4d 7d] [6d]
Dealt to MazeOrBowie [4s Ac 5c Js] [7h]
Dealt to NoraFlum [As Th] [Ks]
yuvee04: bets $200
MazeOrBowie: calls $200
NoraFlum: calls $200
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to yuvee04 [4d 7d 6d] [9s]
Dealt to MazeOrBowie [4s Ac 5c Js 7h] [8h]
Dealt to NoraFlum [As Th Ks] [Kc]
yuvee04: checks
MazeOrBowie: bets $200
NoraFlum: folds
yuvee04: calls $200
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to MazeOrBowie [4s Ac 5c Js 7h 8h] [2c]
yuvee04: bets $200
MazeOrBowie: calls $200
*** SHOW DOWN ***
yuvee04: shows [2d 6c 4d 7d 6d 9s Ah] (Lo: 7,6,4,2,A)
MazeOrBowie: shows [4s Ac 5c Js 7h 8h 2c] (Lo: 7,5,4,2,A)
MazeOrBowie collected $2772 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2775 | Rake $3
Seat 1: thorladen folded on the 3rd Street
Seat 2: yuvee04 showed [2d 6c 4d 7d 6d 9s Ah] and lost with Lo: 7,6,4,2,A
Seat 3: MazeOrBowie showed [4s Ac 5c Js 7h 8h 2c] and won ($2772) with Lo: 7,5,4,2,A
Seat 4: BOBALOB folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: glosik folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 6: NoraFlum folded on the 6th Street

"Is 3rd street wrong because it gives my hand away?"

No. Just because you RR someone doesn't know what cards you hold. Sure they may have a better idea of your range, but I see no reason to slow play here.

"Is 5th possibly a raise? Can NoraFlums call on 5th be correct?"

It could be but most likely against your ranges its a fold. Here is my approximation of your ranges assuming he has perfect perfect in the hole.



You can see he only has ~10% equity assuming wide ranges for you and Yuvee and although his immediate odds are good enough to call, because of future bets I think its an easy fold. One other thing I didn't do in the analysis is to say the 7 never paired you which I think he might assume since you called 5th. So that would lower his equity even more.

As for raising 5th, you are slightly behind Yuvees range if he started with an 8. It kinda depnds on what you think his opening range is and what he will flat with when it gets back to him. I would guess it would be about an 8. I don't really think there is much value in raising, I would much prefer calling down as it lets him bluff and he will always 3 bet you with a better hand. So basically two bets go in when you are ahead and three when behind.

"Is 7th wrong because obv he is paired and I have 2 of the 3 pairs board locked? Or is it ok because he might fold a worse 7 when raised and will always reraise when he has me?"

Based off his 6th street action I don't see how you are behind. I never see him slow playing 6th, then donking out 7th when he improves, that would be a very strange line. Seems like an easy raise on 7th.

Poker Stars $100/$200 Limit Razz $25 Ante - 6 players - View hand 311226
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (1.5 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx K ____Seat 1 brings in for $25____Seat 1 folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4 ____Seat 2 raises____Seat 2 calls
Hero: 4 A 5 ___Hero 3-bets___Hero calls
Seat 4: xx xx 6 ____Seat 4 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 9 ____Seat 5 folds
Seat 6: xx xx A ____Seat 6 caps!

4th Street: (10.75 SB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 4 7 ____Seat 2 bets
Hero: 4 A 5 J ___Hero calls
Seat 6: xx xx A T ____Seat 6 calls

5th Street: (6.875 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 4 7 6 ____Seat 2 bets
Hero: 4 A 5 J 7 ___Hero calls
Seat 6: xx xx A T K ____Seat 6 calls

6th Street: (9.875 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 4 7 6 9 ____Seat 2 checks____Seat 2 calls
Hero: 4 A 5 J 7 8 ___Hero bets
Seat 6: xx xx A T K K ____Seat 6 folds

7th Street: (11.875 BB) (2 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 4 7 6 9 xx____Seat 2 bets
Hero: 4 A 5 J 7 8 2 ___Hero calls

aba said

"As for raising 5th, you are slightly behind Yuvees range if he started with an 8. It kinda depnds on what you think his opening range is and what he will flat with when it gets back to him. I would guess it would be about an 8. I don't really think there is much value in raising, I would much prefer calling down as it lets him bluff and he will always 3 bet you with a better hand. So basically two bets go in when you are ahead and three when behind."



Yea, HU I would never raise 5th here I don't think...at the time I thought there was no chance Nora was coming along so I basically treated it as HU. In the future I might consider that knocking out Nora is important enough to raise, even if I am behind Yuvee's range. Thoughts on that?

aba said

"Based off his 6th street action I don't see how you are behind. I never see him slow playing 6th, then donking out 7th when he improves, that would be a very strange line. Seems like an easy raise on 7th."


You are right 100 percent...my feel for this game is clearly not where it should be

aba what program is that that you are using? Is that a Cardrunners things? I am a CR member and have been meaning to start doing equity calcs for different 8 game things, do they have TD stuff too?

Thanks for responding to my post, I think I am gonna start posting a bunch of hands on here...no reason not to really



Also for everyone...do you guys think the stud converter is better than just the normal hand history? I always get confused by it personally.


couple more questions while I'm here...

Is Sklansky's Razz section in "Sklansky On Poker" regarded as the best literature on the game?

What is the best Stud video on the training sites?

Raising doesn't give your hand away--you could be raising with hands not as strong as you actually have. When Seat 2 just calls the reraise, I would go ahead and put in the last raise. You have an equity edge here and you should exploit it against 2 opponents. Since you didn't put in the last raise, your opponents should read you for something a bit rougher than you actually have here. I would probably have just called because I don't want to put in 3 bets and I'm expecting Seat 6 to fold his small equity anyway.

As for Seat 6's call: remember that Seat 2 just called the 2nd time around on 3rd--so it is hard to put him on wheelies in the hole. Therefore, there is a good chance he paired on 4th or 5th. If Seat 2 paired Seat 6 is still behind with a T draw against 2 7 draws, but an argument can be made for calling. I guess this same reasoning is an argument for Hero raising 5th. Heck yeah, 2s and 3s are live--raise it up! Based on his check/call on 6th, it is hard to give him credit for better that a 76. He might be reading you for a 6 or 7 in the hole because you didn't put in the last raise on 3rd.

Poker Stars $100/$200 Limit Razz $25 Ante - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

3rd Street: (1.5 SB)
thorladen: xx xx K____thorladen brings in for $25____thorladen folds
yuvee04: xx xx 4____yuvee04 completes____yuvee04 calls
Hero: 4 A 5___Hero raises___Hero calls
BOBALOB: xx xx 6____BOBALOB folds
glosik: xx xx 9____glosik folds
NoraFlum: xx xx A____NoraFlum 3-bets

Once it's obvious nobody is folding and the pot is already big, (so your small-pot-playing edges are shot) you have a thin cap for value here since you have two pair cards out and therefore a very strong three-bike. Your opponents each have a dead pair card, but you have two, and they may have overcards. Given that Yuvee didn't cap (he historically pushes thin edges) his starting hand is almost certainly not a 3-bike, probably doesn't contain an Ace, and may be as weak as an Eight.

I do not know NoraFlum.

4th Street: (10.75 SB) (3 players)
yuvee04: xx xx 4 7____yuvee04 bets
Hero: 4 A 5 J___Hero calls
NoraFlum: xx xx A T____NoraFlum calls

The pot is so big here you call and hope NoraFlum doesn't go nuts because her board is fractionally better than yours and give Yuvee the opportunity to 3-bet. As an aside, if she were certain you would fold and had a strong 3-card hand, this might be +EV versus leaving you in the hand, and if your hand were better than hers though possibly worse numerically than Yuvee's, you should consider raising yourself, even expecting to be reraised. It's often worth an extra couple of small bets to get the pot HU once it's gotten big, and with another small card you would welcome the action because your hand is so live.

5th Street: (6.875 BB) (3 players)
yuvee04: xx xx 4 7 6____yuvee04 bets
Hero: 4 A 5 J 7___Hero calls
NoraFlum: xx xx A T K____NoraFlum calls

You welcome the overcall here. It's a huge mistake and she's in such a weak equity position she's welcome to pad the pot. Raising to force her out is unnecessary when she's drawing dead or to running cards, and Yuvee can easily 3-bet to preserve his fold equity even if he's paired because his draw can't be much worse than yours, if you brick again you may become bluffable, and a lot of small cards are out making it more likely you'll brick off.

6th Street: (9.875 BB) (3 players)
yuvee04: xx xx 4 7 6 9____yuvee04 checks____yuvee04 calls
Hero: 4 A 5 J 7 8___Hero bets
NoraFlum: xx xx A T K K____NoraFlum folds

The risk of Yuvee check-raising is lessened by the Third street read. If He were more likely to have three small cards on Third, you should be happy to check through, but in this case you're probably looking at a made 876 or a Nine and a pair of Sixes or Sevens.

7th Street: (11.875 BB) (2 players)
yuvee04: xx xx 4 7 6 9 xx____yuvee04 bets
Hero: 4 A 5 J 7 8 2___Hero calls

You can raise here. The passive Sixth street can only mean he had a redraw to make a Seven, and if he made a Seven, it's a 76. It would be hugely out of character for him to play a made 76 like this on Sixth, But your best hand was an 87 on Sixth, so his lead is either a 76 or a bluff.


Final Pot: 13.875 BB
(Rake: $3.00)

Some people prefer the unconverted hands for Razz. I'm used to converted, so I prefer that. Doesn't really matter.

I consider it essential. The Razz section in SS1 is short but quite good. Very little else written about the game is worth your time to read.

I think there might be merit if Nora caught a 8, 9 or T since him overcalling would be correct. But catching as bad as he did it you actually prefer a call. I would be interested in what others have to say because I am not really sure.

The program is something I had a developer create for me. Its still being updated and should be completed in a week or two. It will probably be available for free to CR members at some point, but I am not 100% sure yet.

I am probably going to do the 2-7 program built after the Stud and Stud 8 ones. So its probably a month or two away.

thanks for the help guys...expect more posts from me...


Electrical...your response was amazing but in both of your links you assumed villians were paired? Why is that?

Have you guys read the tournament Razz section in the FTP book? I have heard that is good but maybe not for cash games

In PPT sims you put cards in parentheses to create a range that doesn't include pairs. The string (7-7-A) means two cards Seven or lower plus an Ace, not including any pairs.

Welcome OP. This seems like an expensive way to get an education in mixed games, but you ask good questions. The tradeoffs you're wondering about (information vs. value) are the key to maximizing your edge in this game, and you would benefit a lot by paying attention to how yuvee plays spots like this when you're sitting across the table from him.