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Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway

02-05-2015 , 07:17 PM
Hey,
Am I correct by jamming here on 3rd and raising on 4th? I feel like this isn't the best spot to be in with so many ppl in the hand. On 4th it's like a value/protection raise (thin out the field)

PokerStars | Limit 7 Stud H/L Cash - $3/$6 $0.45 Ante - 8 players
Hand #129988399335 - delivered by Pokeit

Seat 7: $67.80 (22.6 bb)
Seat 6: $148.28 (49.4 bb)
Seat 5: $77.19 (25.7 bb)
Seat 4: $68.87 (23 bb)
Seat 3: $299.15 (99.7 bb)
Hero: $145.48 (48.5 bb)
Seat 1: $263.16 (87.7 bb)
Seat 8: $36.47 (12.2 bb)

Third Street: ($4) Hero is in Seat 2
Xx Xx 4♠ SB brings in for $1____SB calls $5____SB calls $3
Xx Xx Q♠ UTG calls $1____UTG folds
A♠ A♣ Q♦ Hero raises $2 to $3____Hero raises $3 to $9
Xx Xx 9♥ MP folds
Xx Xx A♥ MP+1 folds
Xx Xx 8♠ LP calls $3____LP calls $6
Xx Xx 7♣ CO calls $3____CO calls $6
Xx Xx K♦ BTN raises $3 to $6____BTN calls $3

Fourth Street: ($50) (5 players)
Xx Xx 7♣ 7♠ CO checks____CO calls $6
Xx Xx K♦ 5♥ BTN bets $3____BTN calls $3
Xx Xx 4♠ 5♠ SB calls $3____SB calls $3
A♠ A♣ Q♦ 9♦ Hero raises $3 to $6
Xx Xx 8♠ 7♥ LP folds

Fifth Street: ($74) (4 players)
Xx Xx 7♣ 7♠ 6♣ CO checks____CO calls $6
Xx Xx K♦ 5♥ T♠ BTN checks____BTN calls $6
Xx Xx 4♠ 5♠ 8♥ SB checks____SB calls $6
A♠ A♣ Q♦ 9♦ 8♦ Hero bets $6

Sixth Street: ($98) (4 players)
Xx Xx 7♣ 7♠ 6♣ 6♥ CO checks
Xx Xx K♦ 5♥ T♠ 6♦ BTN checks
Xx Xx 4♠ 5♠ 8♥ J♦ SB checks
A♠ A♣ Q♦ 9♦ 8♦ J♥ Hero checks

Seventh Street: ($98) (4 players)
Xx Xx 7♣ 7♠ 6♣ 6♥ Xx CO bets $6
Xx Xx K♦ 5♥ T♠ 6♦ Xx BTN folds
Xx Xx 4♠ 5♠ 8♥ J♦ Xx SB folds
A♠ A♣ Q♦ 9♦ 8♦ J♥ 8♣ Hero calls $6

Final Pot: ($106.60 | rake $3.00) (2 players)
Seat 6 shows 3♦ 2♣ 7♣ 7♠ 6♣ 6♥ A♦ HI: two pair, Sevens and SixesLO: 7s,6c,3d,2c,Ad +$25.85
Hero shows A♠ A♣ Q♦ 9♦ 8♦ J♥ 8♣ HI: two pair, Aces and Eights +$25.85
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote
02-06-2015 , 02:51 PM
I would call third and raise 4th when the K leads (which should happen very often). You got the raise in on 4th anyway, but our hand should be pretty face up after we reraise a Q vs. the K's raise on third. That reraise also bloats the pot, almost never folds one of the low hands behind you, and extracts significantly less value with the dead A and Q. So I'd rather play the hand in a way that is more deceptive vs. the other high hand and gives us a better chance of thinning the field.

Edit to add: Just learning the game, so hopefully a more authoritative voice weighs in.

Last edited by sfcard; 02-06-2015 at 02:58 PM.
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote
02-10-2015 , 08:38 PM
Bravo to the the call third, raise fourth line. Deceptive, can convince the K that you have a flush draw and not AA; instead of a line where you convince him you have AA. Any merit to betting sixth street? 7766 won't fold on 6th, but with your deceptive line, he may fold seventh unimproved. Thoughts?
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote
02-12-2015 , 12:46 AM
Standard, nice hand.
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote
02-12-2015 , 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfcard
I would call third and raise 4th when the K leads (which should happen very often). You got the raise in on 4th anyway, but our hand should be pretty face up after we reraise a Q vs. the K's raise on third. That reraise also bloats the pot, almost never folds one of the low hands behind you, and extracts significantly less value with the dead A and Q. So I'd rather play the hand in a way that is more deceptive vs. the other high hand and gives us a better chance of thinning the field.
You are likely better off jamming 3rd in such a situation and you are overestimating opponents that will:

1. think his hand is face up
2. thinking they will fold anything on 4th (field will be thinned (no low and often no bricked low will even fold.))

Last edited by Joe Tall; 02-12-2015 at 01:09 AM.
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote
02-12-2015 , 05:40 AM
i think jamming is very bad since two of our cards are dead. even if they were live, i wouldn't jam for value because of horrible RIO.

our hand probably has the worst or 2nd worst equity in most scenarios. im sure this goes against all intuition since AA is like the nuts in holdem...

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: q9a
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
asac qd18.15% 43,865160,6561514,49382
$L$L 8s19.34% 38,97981,278408124,7781,472
$L$L 7c21.60% 46,54392,876510139,9051,713
$L$L 4s21.91% 50,18485,850506155,6091,855
k* kd18.99% 44,760178,602375,04983

our hand is in the gutters on 4th

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: q9a
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
asac qd 9d14.97% 31,679147,993200
$L$L 8s 7h21.59% 36,71174,343469163,1331,430
$L$L 7c 7s18.13% 35,418108,60725282,3471,285
$L$L 4s 5s28.95% 76,822112,971549215,2121,054
k* kd 5h16.35% 34,654155,425537,155153

the above is also very quick-liberal ranges. our true equity is definitely poorer.

5th is somewhat interesting to me.

as played, you might as well bluff 6th, intending to bluff brick rivers to fold out two pair hands in a humongous pot.

Last edited by tiger415; 02-12-2015 at 06:09 AM.
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote
02-12-2015 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger415
i think jamming is very bad since two of our cards are dead. even if they were live, i wouldn't jam for value because of horrible RIO.

our hand probably has the worst or 2nd worst equity in most scenarios. im sure this goes against all intuition since AA is like the nuts in holdem...

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: q9a
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
asac qd18.15% 43,865160,6561514,49382
$L$L 8s19.34% 38,97981,278408124,7781,472
$L$L 7c21.60% 46,54392,876510139,9051,713
$L$L 4s21.91% 50,18485,850506155,6091,855
k* kd18.99% 44,760178,602375,04983

our hand is in the gutters on 4th

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: q9a
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
asac qd 9d14.97% 31,679147,993200
$L$L 8s 7h21.59% 36,71174,343469163,1331,430
$L$L 7c 7s18.13% 35,418108,60725282,3471,285
$L$L 4s 5s28.95% 76,822112,971549215,2121,054
k* kd 5h16.35% 34,654155,425537,155153

the above is also very quick-liberal ranges. our true equity is definitely poorer.

5th is somewhat interesting to me.

as played, you might as well bluff 6th, intending to bluff brick rivers to fold out two pair hands in a humongous pot.
On my first look, I thought only a Q was dead so my first assumption is wrong. And now you have me convinced that calling is the right play, the equities are closer than what you have here (although not by much), given that the ranges have all hands on non-pair lows, which most certainly cannot always be true.

Call 3rd, tiger for the reasons tiger has stated, it's true our equity is not as good as I thought:

Allowing our opponents to have paired-hands:

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: q9a
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
asacqd18.87% 76,193124,226426,90129
LL 8s20.58% 77,465111,2694563,404206
LL 7c21.15% 80,137115,2665466,463203
LL 4s19.64% 73,632104,3353768,039222
k* kd19.76% 81,645144,8242011,70346

When an Ace is not dead:

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: q9
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
asacqd22.11% 88,542153,9252923,68184
LL 8s19.93% 69,263104,2533270,930194
LL 7c20.52% 72,243108,4684173,257216
LL 4s19.39% 67,28099,3413576,701209
k*kd18.05% 70,484133,9302913,26157

Last edited by Joe Tall; 02-12-2015 at 05:42 PM.
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote
02-12-2015 , 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
You are likely better off jamming 3rd in such a situation and you are overestimating opponents that will:

1. think his hand is face up
2. thinking they will fold anything on 4th (field will be thinned (no low and often no bricked low will even fold.))
How often do we think Hero can get the (xx)8 and (xx)7 to fold on 3rd by jamming tho? This would be a huge win for Hero (slightly smaller with the given dead cards), so it wouldn't have to happen much for jamming to be correct. Also, he doesn't have to fear getting capped since his equity will go from worst to first!

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: q9a87
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
asacqd37.10% 191,152228,361629,889
LL 4s31.34% 152,075166,9441076,418
k* kd31.55% 162,644204,6791613,037

Last edited by Joe Tall; 02-12-2015 at 05:40 PM. Reason: formatted the sim-grid
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote
02-12-2015 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SGspecial
How often do we think Hero can get the (xx)8 and (xx)7 to fold on 3rd by jamming tho? This would be a huge win for Hero (slightly smaller with the given dead cards), so it wouldn't have to happen much for jamming to be correct. Also, he doesn't have to fear getting capped since his equity will go from worst to first!

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: q9a87
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
asacqd37.10% 191,152228,361629,889
LL 4s31.34% 152,075166,9441076,418
k* kd31.55% 162,644204,6791613,037
Good point, it's def non-0 but the reason why I always say "your opponents dont fold" is the effort to get them to fold is often to costly and frequency severely overestimated.

It's one of those frequent strategies you see in the older books, where it's just not as true in online poker. Opponents in stud games, online, do not enter pots to fold on the same street, and, quite often, do not fold on the next street.
Stud8 aces on 3rd multiway Quote

      
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