I took a day off and decided to go through my PTS database and check out my play for the last month. A question that has come up in my mind before when I'm playing, but forget to ask is: how to play a four flush?

Checking my equity, if I'm still in a hand on 4th st and make a four flush I usually have 51% or more equity. Of course I'm always going to the river with this, but when do you raise? Do you raise at all with a non-made flush? When do you slow down if you haven't yet made your flush?

Here's a hand I pulled out that is obviously a good example of do I raise or not on 4th. I'll see if I can get one that I keep bricking and question when to slow down.

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 Limit Stud $0.20 Ante - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

3rd Street: (1.6 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 2____Seat 1 brings in for $0.25____Seat 1 folds
Seat 2: xx xx J____Seat 2 folds
Seat 3: xx xx 8____Seat 3 calls____Seat 3 calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5____Seat 4 calls____Seat 4 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 7____Seat 5 folds
Hero: 3 K 6___Hero calls___Hero calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9____Seat 7 completes____Seat 7 calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7____Seat 8 raises

4th Street: (10.1 SB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 8 K____Seat 3 calls
Hero: 3 K 6 A___Hero calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9 7____Seat 7 calls
Seat 8: xx xx 7 7____Seat 8 bets

5th Street: (9.05 BB) (4 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 8 K 5____Seat 3 calls____Seat 3 calls
Hero: 3 K 6 A 4___Hero completes
Seat 7: xx xx 9 7 3____Seat 7 folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7 7 T____Seat 8 bets all in

6th Street: (11.475 BB) (3 players - 1 is all in)
Seat 3: xx xx 8 K 5 K____Seat 3 checks____Seat 3 calls
Hero: 3 K 6 A 4 4___Hero bets
Seat 8: xx xx 7 7 T 2

7th Street: (13.475 BB) (3 players - 1 is all in)
Seat 3: xx xx 8 K 5 K xx____Seat 3 checks____Seat 3 calls
Hero: 3 K 6 A 4 4 2___Hero bets
Seat 8: xx xx 7 7 T 2 xx

Found one:

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 Limit Stud $0.20 Ante - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

3rd Street: (1.6 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx 8____Seat 1 folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7____Seat 2 folds
Seat 3: xx xx 6____Seat 3 folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9____Seat 4 completes
Seat 5: xx xx 6____Seat 5 folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9____Seat 6 folds
Hero: 9 8 2___Hero brings in for $0.25___Hero calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8____Seat 8 folds

4th Street: (3.6 SB) (2 players)
Seat 4: xx xx 9 2____Seat 4 bets____Seat 4 calls
Hero: 9 8 2 4___Hero raises

5th Street: (3.8 BB) (2 players)
Seat 4: xx xx 9 2 7____Seat 4 calls
Hero: 9 8 2 4 4___Hero bets

6th Street: (5.8 BB) (2 players)
Seat 4: xx xx 9 2 7 2____Seat 4 raises
Hero: 9 8 2 4 4 3___Hero bets___Hero calls

7th Street: (9.8 BB) (2 players)
Seat 4: xx xx 9 2 7 2 xx____Seat 4 raises
Hero: 9 8 2 4 4 3 K___Hero bets___Hero folds

I would say that how fast you play a 4 flush depends on a number of different factors. In no particular order...

1) the number of your suits that are out
2) what your opponents are showing
3) what your other cards are (especially in relation to the cards your opponents are showing)
4) If you have straight possibilities with your flush (backdoor or otherwise)
5) How live your pair cards (or straight cards if applicable)
6) How likely your opponents are to fold in the face of aggression
7) The number of people in the pot
8) What you are showing

There's probably a few other ones I'm missing. As such, it's not really easy to say explicitly this is what to do in those situations.

The first hand is pretty straight forward, though I don't know if I'd have limp/cold called two bets, given that two clubs are out, and you only have one high card as a backup plan if the clubs don't come in. After that, it's completely standard, especially since you have the good fortune of knowing seat 8 can't have trips on 4th.

The second hand is a little more complicated in that on the one hand, your flush is completely live, but on the other every other high option for your hand, both pairs and straight cards, are dead so if you don't hit the flush you are basically screwed. 4th is the second best possible scenario for you, in that its a heart and it gives you a chance to win the hand, the first being that it's a high heart which would let you represent pairing it. I'm not totally sold on the raise on 4th, just because you can't really represent any other hand than a flush with that, so it probably lowers your implied odds some. Out of curiosity, why did you bet 7th? Did you think there was any chance he would fold getting 10-1 after raising you the previous street ? Because if not, you may as well check and call, since it costs the same bet but doesn't give him the opportunity to raise you out.

Yea, betting 7th is the 2nd had is terri-bad. You have an open pair and got raised on 6th so he is telling you that he is never folding. Just c/f 7th, you don't have to win every pot.

These are hands that are about 2-3 months old. I just started playing actively in mid-June, so these were probably from my worse playing days. Hence the calling a raise with 2 clubs out and betting on 7th in the second hand. I've come a long way since those days, these were just the first two that I found.

First hand looks good. Second hand looks good until the river bluff, which can't work, can it?

In hand 2, on 4th st you are like 60% so the raise is correct.
On 5th I think you are ahead too, like 55% (assumming foe as something like A9 for pair of nines) since you still have very live flush draw (~40%) plus some outs to two pair /trips.
on 6th foes pairs and you don't improve so check/call, not bet
imho 4th and 5th correct, 6th 7th not.

Minor quibble, but I think in the second hand it's the liveness of the flush that makes it one you can play reasonably fast even up to 5th, not the pair/trip outs. If you're counting on pair outs on 5th, when you have 98244 and there are two nines, two eights, and one two out. I'm probably misstating your position, but the point I want to make is that the pair outs for this hand are really really dead, and you probably wouldn't want to play it too far if it weren't for the fact that the flush outs which are stronger are so live.

Otherwise, I agree with this post, in the sense that you are a favorite if he only has one pair up to 6th street. Giving him a pair of tens down, since I think a pair of nines is unlikely since 3 are accounted for, and it's a more pessimistic scenario where you can't pair up and take the lead right away, you're about 58-42 on 4th and 5th. So you can play as aggressively as you want, depending on how much you want to to deal with variance. 6th, yes, don't bet here. His board isn't conducive with many draws, so he probably started with a pair, and now the pair outs you did have, minimal as they were, are almost certainly worthless. 7th I've mentioned already

Yes, very few non-flush outs. Agreed. Each out on 5th is worth about 4-5% to the river, so its enough to put Hero over 50% on 5thst versus (TT).

Looks good except for the second hand on the river. Villian will never fold here.

Where do you get this number? I'm not arguing with it, I'm sure you're right, I'd just never heard it before and was curious where it came from

Agreed on the not folding on the river. My younger days ;-). This is why we review our hands

Great responses in this thread, thank you guys.

I think GLKST gives the best answer here or at least the most things to consider. 4th st and 5th st always give me the most trouble with whether or not to raise.

If you run the risk of knocking people out of the pot, does it make sense to just flat a bet or 1-bet it rather than raise and knock out? I know your position probably has a lot to do with it (last to act in a 4 way pot where everyone called = probable raise), but what if you're second to act with 1st already having a bet in?

I'm not betting a non-made flush on 6th unless I know the guy is capable of folding whatever he has and I'm semi-bluffing. There are other circumstances that give me pause, such as what if 3 players are on 6th, you're last to act, 1st person bets and 2nd raises. Do you stick with it?

EDIT: One more, what if someone pairs their door on 4th and you're on the four flush? Questions questions

My own calculation. I'm a statistician. Generally 4.5% per true (non-counterfeit) out to beat a pair from 5th st to 7th. With 11 true outs your even, usually. It a rough guide.

Another spot you can look to raise occasionally is 5th street. In a large multiway pot if you are last to act is one spot where this can work. If you end up making your flush on 6th you get an extra round of big bets. If you don't you check behing 6th and you are in the river for the same price. This play is obv dependant on the likelihood of you being last to act on 6th as well.

Also it can work HU too the same way or more as a semibluff as you have some decent fold equity as some players will fold a decent pair fearing trips. It's a good way of disguising that you have a fourflush. Use it sparingly and only if you catch your suits first 4 as observant players will put you square on a flush draw if you raise 5th after catching your 4th suit.

by pushing flush draws you force them to pay off your better pair hands.
you are at least even money to win most times with the flush draw so bet them hard unless you see reasons not to.

Thanks Ray! Also thank you for 7CS4AP and your H/L book. They've paid for themselves several times over.