I got curious about how far back they can trace suit ranking - esp as my information was a while ago - found a lot of conflicting stuff here is one guy who puts spades first -(his take on the meanings of suits differs from what I was told) found another site (I forgot to mark it) that listed a bunch of games I never heard of and different kinds of rankings -

I recall a really fascinating story of how cards originated in China around 1000 A.D. with what started as tiles and moved west into India and the Arabian peninsula and ended up being brought to Spain by the Moors but really caught on in Italy -

I saw another site where some guy claims that technically since there is no set suit ranking, if you had matching straight flushes you'd split the pot -

Is there any scholar you know of that is considered the sort of ultimate authority on this? The nerd in me longs to know...

The suits have no rank in determining the winner of a poker hand. A K 9 6 3 would split the pot A K 9 6 3 if they are the best hand. The ranking of the suits are only used in determining who gets the button when opening a flop game, who gets the bring-in in a stud game, and who gets the odd chip in a split pot in a stud game. Maybe there's something else I'm forgetting, but it's only stuff like this, not determining the best hand.

I read a library book on the history of playing cards quite a few years ago. Don't really remember much of it except that they're Chinese in origin and it took them a while to get to the suits we use today.

Here's a fragment from a Stars' HH, that made me think of this thread:


*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to jll9696 [3d] [8s]
Dealt to Pongo Kid [9s] [Ks]
Dealt to furua [8h] [3s]
Dealt to giterdone1 [Tc] [Jh]
Dealt to faule [Ad] [9d]
jll9696: bets $0.50
Pongo Kid: folds
furua: calls $0.50
giterdone1: folds
faule: calls $0.50

furua should be low with 8h3s, right? jll9696 was first to act with 8s3d, though.


re: Are we bored? This is exactly the stuff that a bunch of elderly stud players are supposed to be sitting around arguing about.

jll does have the lowest card, but I'm pretty sure that he bet first because he's immediately to the dealer's left.

on both FTP and Stars, and at the WSOP, it's the player to the dealer's left to break ties for first action on 4th st and later. Binion's must be stuck in the 16th century.

From Stars Razz page: Which is all it says. It's always been my impression they determine who plays first on the other streets by suit, also, in case of duplicate hands.

Well, it doesn't say it all, because it doesn't say what they do on fourth street in case of ties. In every casino except apparently Binion's--and that might only have been for the one day last week--it's the player to the left of the dealer. I thought that I had determined that that's how they do it on Stars, but I really don't pay that much attention, and I might be thinking of some other site.

I know - it doesn't say anything specifically, but I came to the opposite conclusion you and Dan did.

I was just laughing looking at the title to this thread. Do you think the OP switched to LHE yet?

I have to email Stars now.

Maybe PM Alex Scott as well?

I played in the same Binion's tourney, and I know at one point a decision was made based on who was to the dealer's left. I wasn't in the hand and wasn't really paying attention, but I can't think of another situation where that would be a factor.

Maybe I just had better dealers than Scotty.

Hey, I want to know something else, too. Isn't being last to act considered best in terms of position? Why, in Razz, does the person with the best hand go first?

So that we can punish the donks on 5th that open bet 9JQ into our A5A board.


Not so much a reason as an effect, but I think it generates more action. An open check by the strongest board doesn't happen nearly as often as it would if you could just check behind to see another card. I think you'd get a lot more people playing crap in the hole knowing that they can check behind because their board is good.

It would be way too unbalanced if the best board ALSO got to act last.

Although, it's one of the reasons I love stud8 - it uses stud rules to determine who goes first, so often the best equity hand (a low hand with good high potential or a made high hand) gets to act last.

The player with the best hand goes first in stud too. It's somewhat arbitrary, but if someone is showing 542 on fifth street, everyone's apt to check to him anyway. Why not speed things along and have him act first?

Expand ???

----

Whenever I've played I've always had the software or the dealer to tell me that I'm the buy in or the first to act - so I've not really paid any attention to it.

The organisers of an event sent me a long list of technical questions for me to answer and this was the only one that I wasn't sure of.

The alphabetical suit order is the one I had seen (but forgotten) and needed reminding of, it's good that play on 4th street and later has been brought up because that has reminded me to send the clarification of this to the event's organisers. Thanks for the help.

I didn't see it corrected in this thread, but the term is bring-in, not buy-in.

I'm sorry if you thought I was in any way dissing you - my comment was about how you characterized it as a "simple" question and we turned it into some epic thread that still doesn't have a resolution of all questions - (I should remember to ask Stars.) So, if you were new to Razz, you might decide HE is simpler!

see - I told you I didn't pay attention

Although I think that was more not paying attention when I wrote the thread name.

Cheers, it sounded like a "diss" but I didn't understand why? That's why I asked.

Anyway I've gone with suit order, in the WSOP last year I'm pretty sure this is how they did it for the bring-in, I can't remember how they did it for the other streets but using the same method (apart from switching high to low) seems to me more logical than left of dealer. So I've mentioned both, but recommended just using suit order (for betting only, obv., not winning the pot) - and I don't care if everywhere else does it differently - I'm following logic.

Actually, I'm sure that Stars does it that way all thru the hand - it came up last year but it was in the old threads, I think. Have fun and gl.

From the horse' mouth: Always trust the horse.

Sorry to quote my own post, but am I reading this hand history fragment wrong? It looks to me like PokerStars is not using the suits to determine who is first to act on 4th here. I think jll9696 is first to act because he is to the dealer's left. I could dig up the whole hand history if you want to see it.

*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to jll9696 [3d] [8s]

Dealt to furua [8h] [3s]

jll9696: bets $0.50

furua: calls $0.50

I have asked this before - it seems as if the "worst" hand is defaulted to go first - in both BI and on later streets - but they haven't tweaked it for Razz, so they are using the Stud default. In either of the other Stud games, this order would be correct.

If you send me the HH, I'll be happy to contact Stars (in a timlier fashion) and see what they have to say. In this case, distance from the Dealer is coincidental, imo.

I finally see what you are saying...they are using the suits method for determining first to act--they are just doing it wrong(for razz)!

Here's the full hh:

PokerStars Game #18154317935: Razz Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/06/15 - 12:56:10 (ET)
Table 'Astrid II' 8-max
Seat 1: nutOmatic ($45.50 in chips)
Seat 2: jll9696 ($25.80 in chips)
Seat 3: Pongo Kid ($30.60 in chips)
Seat 4: jfkpayette ($6.95 in chips)
Seat 5: furua ($14.10 in chips)
Seat 6: giterdone1 ($12.80 in chips)
Seat 7: faule ($20.05 in chips)
Seat 8: santorio1 ($98.05 in chips)
nutOmatic: posts the ante $0.05
jll9696: posts the ante $0.05
Pongo Kid: posts the ante $0.05
jfkpayette: posts the ante $0.05
furua: posts the ante $0.05
giterdone1: posts the ante $0.05
faule: posts the ante $0.05
santorio1: posts the ante $0.05
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to nutOmatic [5c Th Qh]
Dealt to jll9696 [3d]
Dealt to Pongo Kid [9s]
Dealt to jfkpayette [7h]
Dealt to furua [8h]
Dealt to giterdone1 [Tc]
Dealt to faule [Ad]
Dealt to santorio1 [9h]
nutOmatic: brings in for $0.25
jll9696: calls $0.25
Pongo Kid: calls $0.25
jfkpayette: folds
furua: calls $0.25
giterdone1: calls $0.25
faule: raises $0.25 to $0.50
santorio1: folds
nutOmatic: folds
jll9696: calls $0.25
Pongo Kid: calls $0.25
furua: calls $0.25
giterdone1: calls $0.25
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to jll9696 [3d] [8s]
Dealt to Pongo Kid [9s] [Ks]
Dealt to furua [8h] [3s]
Dealt to giterdone1 [Tc] [Jh]
Dealt to faule [Ad] [9d]
jll9696: bets $0.50
Pongo Kid: folds
furua: calls $0.50
giterdone1: folds
faule: calls $0.50
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to jll9696 [3d 8s] [7c]
Dealt to furua [8h 3s] [5d]
Dealt to faule [Ad 9d] [6s]
furua: checks
faule: checks
jll9696: checks
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to jll9696 [3d 8s 7c] [2c]
Dealt to furua [8h 3s 5d] [6h]
Dealt to faule [Ad 9d 6s] [8c]
furua: checks
faule: bets $1
jll9696: calls $1
furua: calls $1
*** RIVER ***
furua: checks
faule: checks
jll9696: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jll9696: shows [6c 8d 3d 8s 7c 2c 2d] (Lo: 8,7,6,3,2)
furua: shows [5h 4c 8h 3s 5d 6h Jc] (Lo: 8,6,5,4,3)
faule: shows [2s 3c Ad 9d 6s 8c Kc] (Lo: 8,6,3,2,A)
faule collected $7.30 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.65 | Rake $0.35
Seat 1: nutOmatic folded on the 3rd Street
Seat 2: jll9696 showed [6c 8d 3d 8s 7c 2c 2d] and lost with Lo: 8,7,6,3,2
Seat 3: Pongo Kid folded on the 4th Street
Seat 4: jfkpayette folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: furua showed [5h 4c 8h 3s 5d 6h Jc] and lost with Lo: 8,6,5,4,3
Seat 6: giterdone1 folded on the 4th Street
Seat 7: faule showed [2s 3c Ad 9d 6s 8c Kc] and won ($7.30) with Lo: 8,6,3,2,A
Seat 8: santorio1 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)

After I ante out of this tournament, I'll put something together or Stars - thanks for finding it.