Razz.

Third's a no brainer.

4th I catch a brickola against his good but dog-dooer than me is still behind. Since I've now made the pot so big, I gotta take one off with the trashy jack.

On 5th the previous aggressor seems unhappy with his ten and goes from betting to checking. Now brick-boy with the AK7 showing bets into me. So I popped it, trying to give the newfound checker a reason to ditch it. Was my logic on 5th street right?

On 6th, I'm hoping seat two has a pair. I guess he did cuz he folded, but after his previous cold-call, I expected him to call. But brick-boy with the new pair of sevens could still be drawing to beat my 87, but he'd need perfect-perfect in the hole, and still need to catch.

Catching a brick on the river sucked. Bet, trying to get a worse eight, or a nine, ten, or jack to call me? And if I bet, any chance of getting a better hand to fold? Probably not on that second one. Might have been an iffy river bet, depending on his payoff standards.

Good? Bad? Indifferent?

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 Limit Razz $0.05 Ante - 7 players - View hand 563344
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (1.4 SB)
Seat 2: xx xx 3 ____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls
Seat 3: xx xx J ____Seat 3 brings in for $0.10____Seat 3 folds
Seat 4: xx xx T ____Seat 4 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8 ____Seat 5 folds
Seat 6: xx xx A ____Seat 6 completes____Seat 6 3-bets____Seat 6 calls
Seat 7: xx xx T ____Seat 7 folds
Hero: 2 4 A ___Hero raises___Hero caps!

4th Street: (13.8 SB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 3 6 ____Seat 2 bets
Seat 6: xx xx A K ____Seat 6 calls
Hero: 2 4 A J ___Hero calls

5th Street: (8.4 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 3 6 T ____Seat 2 checks____Seat 2 calls
Seat 6: xx xx A K 7 ____Seat 6 bets____Seat 6 calls
Hero: 2 4 A J 7 ___Hero raises

6th Street: (14.4 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 3 6 T 4 ____Seat 2 checks____Seat 2 folds
Seat 6: xx xx A K 7 7 ____Seat 6 checks____Seat 6 calls
Hero: 2 4 A J 7 8 ___Hero bets

7th Street: (16.4 BB) (2 players)
Seat 6: xx xx A K 7 7 xx____Seat 6 folds
Hero: 2 4 A J 7 8 (BRICK) Hero bets

I raise/call but whatever.

Fine is a pot capped three-way obbbb****usslly versus an opponent auto-betting with three bike cards.....................

I would raise too. We have very similar equity versus seat 6 and although I would like seat 3 to go away I'm not that fussed if he calls coz he probably has a worse draw than both of you

Hmmmm. When they both check to me I would bet too. I wouldn't expect many players to get tricky at this level, so I'm not worried about getting check-raised all that often. We have the best hand veerrrry often so I'd bet too.

Well seat 6 is drawing to a better hand but he'll call with every 8, every 9 and maybe some worse hands. I don't expect to get raised often, even if he has some rough seven, but I suppose anything could happen at this level.

There are only a few things that matter much on 7th regarding whether you can bet or not. The most important is, what is the ratio between the hands he'll fold on 7th and the hands he'll check-call with. Let's pretend for a minute that he'll never raise.

If you believe he'll call you with anything up to an 8, 9 or T, then you lose to any 7, probably beat any 8-T. He can at most have 12 outs to a 7. He has 9 outs to an 8, 9 or T. On average he'll probably have 9-10 outs to a 7, it just depends.

Anyway, if you're sure he'd fold a J or worse then a bet can not show a profit, even if he never check-raises you, because he'll call and win more often than he'll call and lose. If he'd call with a J then it tips in favor of betting a bit because there are 11 cards that can make him an 8-J.

But, if he would check-raise you with a 7, you lose 2 whenever he gets there and win one when he calls and loses, so now you actually need to have him call twice as often as he check-raises, and since he probably has 9-10 outs to a 7, he'd need 18-20 losing outs for a bet to be profitable. He'd need to call you almost all the time.

Yes, this is all fine and dandy. But the real question is, how do you figure this out during a hand? Well, I know there's no tool like my eye when it comes to accuracy.

Seriously tho, it's some unknown guy on FT. I don't track these players or harness any software power so that I know someone's vpip at all times. Being able to accurately assess these unknowns on the fly is a key poker playing ability.

You don't need to know their vpip.

If you want to estimate, then consider just the ranks of their cards. So any 8, 9 or T you win a bet, and any of his 3 bingo cards, whatever they are, you lose a bet. Forgetting dead cards, 3 ranks you win, 3 ranks you lose - this indicates that a bet would be breakeven if you have his calling range right. Dead cards in either direction would tilt the balance a little. Obviously if he wouldn't call with a T then it's not even close. Especially if he might check-raise.

If you don't want to do any math at the table, then consider breaking rivers into 2 categories:
* hands where he's drawing to beat you and will probably fold a lot if he doesn't (check behind)
* hands where he already has a hand that will probably call (bet for value)
This is a hugely broad brush but it's better than nothing.

The more likely that he's drawing to the nuts and knows it, the more you should check behind, because he'll check-raise more often. Many players hardly ever check-raise though.

Edit: these rules obv would only apply when you're in position, had the guaranteed best hand on 6th, and your opponent calls, almost certainly drawing to beat you.

Yeah, "because he'll check-raise more often" isn't much of a worry on 7th against most opponents.

OK, so I'm a little confused. What is your question? I think your river bet is extremely marginal unless your opponent will call very lightly and never ever check-raise.

i like your play on every streets, but i mix it up 3rd. you dont have to jam it there. slightly ahead only, and your polarizing your rage for villian and ofc this play is 0 balanced. i like 5th much.

I'm not usually a Cappy McCapp type of razz player, especially on third, but I was gettin' a little jiggy with it whilst playing yesterday. And besides, if you can't cap it on third with A24, what can you?

another reg who did not get this yet. inform your self about

-balancing
-polarizing


GL

Good point in general, but OP would be wasting his time worrying too much about this at $0.25/$0.50
Hero was out of position on 7th. And yes, it makes a big difference in your analysis.

Please do elaborate in great detail about balancing and polarizing in specific razz situations.

Whoops, I actually read it as villain checking and hero deciding to bet. And yeah it does make a pretty big difference. Here I think I still would rather check call than lead - unless you're pretty sure he's a station who will always call with a J or better.

agree, but theres no point that says you have to cap it, unless his range is wide as 567 or worse. thats my oppinion.

Your opinion is fine. I'd also like to hear a bit more of your (and everyone's) input regarding third. Also how you feel on capping/not capping premium hands as a generalization against unknown opponents or specific types of opponents. Obviously "premium hands" holds a much different connotation in razz, stud, and stud-8, but it's an interesting subject, especially for razz.

al

I'm not that bothered about giving away my hand strength/polarizing my range or balance because at this level players are more than likely not aware about what's going on or why there doing something. They're very likely playing their own hand and not worrying about others

When the 3 flats two bets cold, he's not going to fold for another two so I'm not going to try and isolate the completer/three-bettor(sp?) either.

In a multi-way pot, it's good to try and squeeze extra bets out of the worst hand but I'm not going to go for thin value of third street. I think that my edge is greater, and most of my value comes from later streets when my opponents make bad calls or bad bets.

I just think it's a little...optimistic? to be trying to squeeze value out of what might be a smooth 9/rough 8 at worst (most of the time) on third three-way.

I don't think you're being too optimistic, but I think something that's at the heart of these discussions is that third street on razz just ain't really that important. The very best starting hands generally don't fare all that much better than the so-so hands, because of the way hands change value so quickly later. So the third street equity just doesn't vary as much as it would in stud or stud-8, where it's possible to have just a SO much better hand than your opponents.

Or is that just a bunch of hooah?

No................I said your being a little optimistic

Well that's wrong

This may be true but everything still comes down to +EV and -EV plays and it doesn't stop you from playing good.