Hi guys, I took some personal time off for a while and have been doing a lot of reading and studying over the past couple months. Anyways I was reading Greg Raymer's site some old news stories he has posted which is basically his blog. I have great respect for him and I think he's a great guy and player. I was even fortunate enough to meet him on a break last year at the razz wsop event. In the blog he has this hand posted from 2007 wcoops razz that I was in with him.

Poker Stars $200+$15 Limit Razz Tournament - t2000/t4000 Limit - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Seat 1: t26822 M = 8.94
Seat 2: t23166 M = 7.72
Seat 3: t52987 M = 17.66
Seat 4: t16647 M = 5.55
Seat 5: t13350 M = 4.45
Hero (): t17330 M = 5.78
Seat 7: t7780 M = 2.59
Seat 8: t43801 M = 14.60

3rd Street: (0 SB)
Seat 1: xx xx T____Seat 1 folds
Seat 2: xx xx T____Seat 2 brings in for $600____Seat 2 folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3____Seat 3 raises
Seat 4: xx xx 9____Seat 4 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3____Seat 5 folds
Hero: 3 6 2___Hero calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9____Seat 7 folds
Seat 8: xx xx 6____Seat 8 folds

4th Street: (2.3 SB) (2 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 3 7____Seat 3 bets
Hero: 3 6 2 7___Hero checks___Hero calls

5th Street: (2.15 BB) (2 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 3 7 J____Seat 3 bets
Hero: 3 6 2 7 2___Hero calls

6th Street: (4.15 BB) (2 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 3 7 J Q____Seat 3 bets
Hero: 3 6 2 7 2 Q___Hero calls

7th Street: (6.15 BB) (2 players)
Seat 3: xx xx 3 7 J Q xx____Seat 3 bets
Hero: 3 6 2 7 2 Q 2___Hero calls




Basically the hand is pretty standard. On 7th street I know he needs to hit a card or I have him beat. The pot is decent sized (27,800) and hero (Raymer) has just over 1 bet left. Normally I would check/call but since hero has less then 5000 chips and it's 4000 to bet, I believe the play is to bet considering I'm not worried about him raising me since he would have under a quarter of a bet left. Theres a great chance I will get called even if he doesnt improve. If I check and he improves I have to pay it off, and if he doesnt improve he's getting to keep the extra river bet.

Anyways this was his take on the hand posted on his site:

It turns out I lost this pot to the eventual winner of the tournament. However, while his bet on every other street was correct, his river bet was a clear mistake. He was lucky I paid him off, and the only reason I did so was because he had been caught bluffing more than once in the past. Clearly his bet was never going to get me to fold a hand that had him beat, and it was only occasionally going to get called by hands that he was beating. When you bet the river, that is the only question you can ask. How many hands that beat me will fold, and how many hands that I’m beating will call? Since the first part of the question for him was zero, and the second part of the question was nowhere near 100%, it was a mistake. And I had seen him play a few other hands earlier where he made some clear errors, always on the side of being too loose and too aggressive when the conditions did not merit such play. However, when you look at mistakes that are made by poker players, these are exactly the kinds of mistakes that are made by people who still go on to win tournaments. You almost never see the player who is overly cautious and risk adverse win a tournament, while you see more than the occasional lagtard do so. I’m not saying Ragz is a lagtard, but his imperfections tend to that side (as do my own). Oh well, at least I made the money in two simultaneous tournaments, which isn’t so bad.


Again I have great respect for him and his views but I was just curious what's the play there, because surprisingly that situation comes up a lot in razzaments . Thanks !

he's right in a vacuum, but everyone tiltcalls with one bet left, ergo this is good

I have great respect for Greg as well, but he made a horrible tiltcall and is trying to justify it. Unfortunately, you could not possibly bluff often enough to make his call correct even in a cash game. In your shoes, I would not expect him to make such a big mistake and therefore would not bet it. But if your style of play can tilt even solid guys like Raymer, I say stick with it.

So thread is becoming about whether or not Raymer can really be considered a top-tier razz player?

wow, i would never bet this in a cash game, but if he always calls/cant reraise a full bet then i guess its probably correct.

I think this is a super easy bet. If Raymer did have more BB's left, it's not like he can comfortably raise if he catches well, and if villain checks to him he can bet any improvement. By betting, villain now wins the percentage of the time Raymer makes a loose call, like he does here.

Lots of top-tier players in other games have trouble with certain spots in razz, and they either don't realize it or are playing opponents who tend not to optimally exploit their leaks. I can't comment on Raymer's overall game, only that if his comment on the play in the previous year's event is "there were at least three hands I played where I was called on 5th or 6th street by hands that should have folded even if God himself came down from Heaven and told them I was bluffing" then it's ironic he made the same type of call here on 7th.

Greg is neglecting one other valuable reason for Ragz to bet here. He's thinking that Ragz gains nothing if the river goes bet/fold. No, Ragz gets to keep his hand a mystery if Greg folds, which has some inherent value especially in a tourney where the other players' knowledge of Ragz may be limited to just what they're observing at the table.

Is that enough of a reason to justify a bet? Maybe, maybe not, but Greg seems to be reducing the river to a strict issue of chips gained or lost, without considering the value of information. I know that I've made razor-thin bets in the past where the idea of not having to show my hand tipped my decision from checking to betting.

Even though I am a low stakes player I have other income streams and so had the honour of playing with Greg in the WSOP Razz a couple of years ago. My experience was he is a top fellow, but not razz isn't his best game by far.

He is right about laggards being more likely to win tournies, but this isn't due to this play, but more about the structure of tournies are made by certain pros who make them n a certain way that benefit themselves and as such tend to give advantage to those who bet without having a clue.

In the hand itself, I like the bet on the end. In normal circumstances I think a check is in order the majority of the time. But what happens if you check, the villain can make a lot of value bets on the end when they improve (though they may bluff sometimes). Secondly, if you only bet when you catch really good then the villain can fold when improving slightly. So here a bet seems sensible as the villain doesn't have much left behind and when called you set yourself up for value betting in other hands whch come up in the future.

i think the biggest issue with the hand is that greg needs to find the raise button at some pt by 5th street, especially if greg viewed op as aggressive. i think he shud be reraising 3rd, but if not 3rd than usually 4th. but if for some reason i didnt, then i'd never not raise 5th. 23672 is still has ~60% equity vs (9-9-3)7J

edit: there are obviously arguments for not pushing some small edge on 3rd or calling with a 3card 6 to balance ur flatting range, but those are fairly irrelevant imo when greg has a little more than 4 big bets to start the hand ( assuming they are not very close to the bubble). plus, the small chance of OP being on a complete steal and folding to gregs raise, which would be a pretty big pickup compared to greg's stack, in addition to the basic value of the raise vs OP's range makes it a clear rr.

yeah, I can't believe Greg posted this hand because he played it so poorly.

Don't forget the advantages of making the pot HU on 3rd with a raise and shutting out hands like (a2)9 or (a2)t which may be behind him. In a low to midsize ante cash game, sure let 'em in with trash but Greg would be wise not to tempt them when short stacked in a MTT with 1.6 SB in antes on the table. 4th is just an awful flat. 5th I can understand not raising, because even tho greg is still a favorite over any range you can give to a laggy opener he would be totally pot committed at that point (and certainly get 3-bet when ragz does have a 7-low draw). If he raised 4th and got 3-bet, at least he could make a heroic laydown on the end and have a couple antes left to try and get lucky.