I'm new to RAZZ, I've been playing .25/.5 on stars. I'm trying to get a grasp on the game before I move up in stakes. But I really think these players are that bad, a blind monkey could beat it. I even find myself just playing my exposed cards to get opponents hands.

Obviously when I move up stakes I will be unable to get away with this. So I would like some help with a range of hands I can Call/Bet/Raise/Steal with.

Is it correct to try and steal if there 2 players to act behind with high cards exposed and you hold 6K2 with the deuce exposed?

When should you open the betting? 3 cards lower than 6 or 7??

Instead of the bring in when is it correct to bet?

I know this is all very general, maybe if someone knows a website I can read.

If I understand you correctly here, you want to know if it's been folded to you, and you have (6K)2 with the 2 up, and there are two players behind you with like, a J and a T, if you should steal. I think I can get total agreement in saying yes. This is a perfect spot to steal, it is completely standard for the last low card to act to raise if nobody else has entered the pot in front of them, regardless of what two cards they have under.

This depends on a lot of things. Position for one, and the cards exposed for another. For example, in the steal situation, you had great position and the cards exposed were so favorable that your hidden cards were basically unimportant. So the later your position, the more you can open up. Also the worse the cards that are remaining behind you, the more you can open up if you have a good low card up. As for earlier positions, the strength of your hand is significantly affected by the cards your opponents are showing. If there are a lot of cards showing that are the same as yours, your hand is that much stronger. For example if you have A43 and there are a lot of aces, fours and threes out, that's great for you because it means it's less likely you will catch one and pair. On the other hand, if there are a lot of twos, fives, and sixes, that's bad for you because you want those cards. On the most general level, I generally will open three card eights from most positions, especially if the eight isn't showing.

I may not be understanding you correctly here, but you're asking when it's correct to bring in for a full bet instead of the partial bring in bet when you are compelled to act first? I don't think you would go too far wrong with never. Your opponents have such an advantage on you because the worst card of your hand is up (I assume, if you are the bring in and have a worst card under you probably aren't considering bringing in for a full bet). Even in a situation where your hand is strong, say it's short handed and you have 6(43) and there are a lot of your cards duplicated. You could theoretically come in for a full bet then, but you could also bring in for the minimum, disguise the strength of your hand, and get more action later on. So never isn't the worst way to go.

http://listeningsrazzblog.blogspot.com/

especially check out the 2+2 articles, that you can find by looking on the right side, under titles

that is great, thank you very much. i just found my super system book. so i'll go through and give the razz section a read. thanks very much

Only a very small section of Super System is actually devoted to razz, but the advice it does have is good

+1. If you can read, remember, and apply all 7 pages there you will become better than 95% of your current opponents.

thanks guys, with no experience i was crushing the lower limits. i can only imagine what its like with knowlede

Am I the only one who receives this error

at that link?

here's something to consider when playing razz - and people will probably disagree with me - i think raising a completed bet is almost always throwing away money. unlike HE, you don't have a made hand.

particularly for beginners, i think you're better off just putting in the one bet before you have a made 8 at least (depending on what the opponent is showing).

This is really bad advice, especially if you're playing better starting hands and draws than your looser opponents.

Other than the nuts, there is no absolute hand strength in lowball games, only relative strength. Your starting hand, your draw and your made hand all need to be evaluated against your opponents' probable hands and draws, not some arbitrary standard like "made Eight."

There are many reasons to bet. You bet the best hand for value, you bet the best draw for value and to earn a free card if you wish to take it. You bet when you have at least break-even equity to force opponents behind you to put money in the pot incorrectly. You bet to make someone fold a better hand.

Failing to bet when appropriate is usually a bigger mistake than betting or raising when you shouldn't, because you sometimes forfeit the entire pot and sometimes fail to get a multiple of that bet as a payoff. The most a bad bet can lose you is one bet. A bad check can lose you many times that.

It's frustrating to bet and lose. Becoming inured to this sensation is a necessary part of understanding how to bet your hands correctly. In the long run, good bets make money.

+1, but I'll add to the list of reasons to bet: to make someone fold a hand with a chance to win even when you're way ahead. This doesn't always work, mind you, but then it turns into a value bet so it's still good.

Also, nobody can have a made hand in razz on 3rd or 4th sts, and often the better draw is ahead of the better made hand on 5th. You should always be thinking about your draw in this game except at showdown.

been reading listening's blog for a while now and when I went (tried to) in yesterday I got that also. Anyone know how to contact listening to get entry to his blogs ?

guys, is there a book that you can recommend about Razz poker ?

Sklansky on Poker.

agreed sklansky on poker is the only razz book i know of..its actually a book within a book as the back section is all on razz and the rest are random articles on poker

[QUOTE=electrical;13850439]

Other than the nuts, there is no absolute hand strength in lowball games, only relative strength.

Probably the best advice I ever read on the subject. It's simple, but really worthwhile.

Marco

This isn't restricted to low-ball games.

True but (some) lowball games are the only ones where you're likely to know the relative strength of your hand.

Take a game like razz - nothing matters on your opponent's board except the rank of his cards. There are no pairs, no flushes, no straights - nothing counts except the ranks (well ok pairs count against you but I think you see what I mean). So it's extremely easy to evaluate the best/worst case scenario - and that range is usually pretty small.

Because of this it's often obvious when you can value-bet hands that are normally very weak, and when you must fold hands that sometimes might be very strong.

In a game like stud high, the best possible hand before the river on a totally uncoordinated board is always at least trips. on the river it could be quads, with no pair showing. Also with no pair showing, his hand could be high card. So someone's range based on their board in stud high is usually somewhere between high card, the lowest ranked hand, and quads, the 2nd highest ranked type of hand. Throw something like 2c and 6c on the board with no pair and now the best possible hand is a hidden straight flush.

Of course, not all the hands in their range are equally likely and so you can usually weight their range and trim it down considerably but basically it's usually quite hard to gauge the relative strength of your hand.

Now in stud hi/low the difficulty multiplies... that's why I love that game.


(Even in draw lowball games you can better guess the strength of your hand because there are fewer drawing situations where it's not clear what your opponent is drawing to. I dread draw-1s in 5cd high because this is either a draw, 2 pair, trips, quads, or possibly nothing. In a draw lowball game, it's a guy with a decent-to-notgreat low draw (depending on the player) drawing to a better low draw. I don't have to guess what kind of hand he's drawing to, so I don't have to assign him a broad range)

Also, one other quick thing, consider one of the things that makes stud games mysterious - the potential pairing of hidden cards to the board - and how that affects razz and stud differently.

Having trips/boat/full house totally hidden is not that likely in either game. So if you discount it a lot you can sort of just shave those hands off the range.

But that means it's easiest to discount hands on the upper end of stud's range, but the lower end of razz's range, and hardest to discount the opposite side of the range.

Razz is a little bit like playing stud high with a deck with only one suit, where the only hand that plays is a flush, and you want the highest flush. It should be clear that this narrows ranges for it.

The question is regarding starting hands, and in that case there is no absolute strength in Razz, only relative strength. In 7cs, if you have rolled trips on Third you have an absolutely strong hand because it could show down and win at the moment and would rate as a strong hand on the river regardless of what cards you catch in the meantime. In Razz a starting hand is just an embryo, and A23 could turn into a wheel or a full house or a King-Queen low. It has no absolute strength, despite being the "best" starting hand.

And also, it may not be "best" on third (have the most equity versus opposition), depending on the dead cards.

That's why I say you should basically forget about starting hand standards like "three cards lower than X..." or whatever. You need to look at the cards on the table and evaluate your starter based on the action and visible cards. Sometimes you fold (82)5, sometimes you cap with it.

+1. The problem you often encounter when giving this advice is that the questioner usually responds "then how do I know which hands to play, and when?". Some players develop an intuitive feel for this after logging many hands and analyzing their results in them, but for those who want a shortcut you might check out this month's issue of the 2p2 magazine.

I agree.
Probably there's no other game like razz that one card (the 4th) can changes things dramatically.
A spectacular starting hand like A-2-3 quickly shifts in a poor hand if a brick comes and opponents catch, for example, a 4 and a 5 (or other good low cards for that matter). Just one card.
At stud high, the best starting hand (A-A)A cannot fear any 4th card except the very remote case of a showing pair on a rolled up trips.
AAA (or other high rolled up trips) is a river ticket (absolute strenght) no matter other boards, whereas A-2-3 has primarily a strong value on 3rd (depending on the exposed cards, of course). And as you well know, many razz starting hands played are almost equal in value.

Marco