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01-21-2009 , 08:03 PM
To quote an SGspecial post from not too long ago (14 months, give or take):

Quote:
Also, if he's good then he's not betting 4th just b/c the software prompted him to -- he's got a hand...
Given that quote, I don't think that SG believes that he should always bet 4th here.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
RAZZ hand From SGspecial
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01-21-2009 , 08:04 PM
Who knew that a hu4rollz joke could cause so much anger? I'm more in the camp of a missed bet on 4th, but what do I know.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-21-2009 , 08:33 PM
im totally a hu4rolls 20 y/o bbvtard. need to figure out how to reload.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-21-2009 , 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parallax
Joe vs. SG HU4ROLLZ!!!
FYP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
What are you talking about? The BBVtard comment was a comic retort for the HU4ROLZ comment, not for you or anyone in this thread.
Obviously. But, frankly, Joe, that response was your least condescending post in this thread so far.

-ChipsAhoya
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-21-2009 , 09:50 PM
Quote:
need to figure out how to reload.
Blood bank imo.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-21-2009 , 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipsAhoya
But, frankly, Joe, that response was your least condescending post in this thread so far.
Sorry you feel that way. I simply feel the play is bad and everyone trying to justify the play makes me feel sad.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-21-2009 , 11:11 PM
There is no question at all, in a standard hand, not betting fourth is wrong. You are right that most of this post is trying to come up with a very limited set of circumstances where it might be right often in a very flip way.

I dont know enough about Razz or the players involved in this hand to speculate on any legit basis if this was one of those cases. But, gaming it out a bit isnt totally useless so long as nobody conclues you normally shouldnt bet in this spot.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-21-2009 , 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davdob
You are right that most of this post is trying to come up with a very limited set of circumstances where it might be right...

1) If Hero was stealing, or paired on 4th, he's at best a slight dog to Villain's range.
2) Villain's not folding (not on this street anyway).
3) By betting, Hero convinces Villain of nothing other than the fact that Hero is capable of making a pro forma bet.


Just my humble opinion...
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-21-2009 , 11:25 PM
I just dont know enough about Villian to be able to say if 1 or 2 is true.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush17
The limit was $30-60

The game was full or pretty close to it


When I was typing the post, I was trying to copy all of the cards/streets, but I took so darn long to do it, that by the time I went back to it, the game had already broken up, which is the main reason why I left out 6th. And, although I don't remember the exact cards that Hero/Villain caught on 6th, I do know that they both caught "good." (I think PW caught an A and SG caught a 3 perhaps)?

SG, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you bet on 6th and he called, but I'm positive that you c/c the river.
Razz ($30/$60), Ante $5, Bring-In $10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.17 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 2___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J___folds
Hero: 6 8 4___completes___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6___raises
Seat 6: xx xx K___brings-in___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 7___folds

4th Street - (5.50 SB)

Hero: 6 8 4 8___checks
Seat 5: xx xx 6 T___checks

5th Street - (2.75 BB)

Hero: 6 8 4 8 2___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 6 T 9___calls

6th Street - (4.75 BB)

Hero: 6 8 4 8 2 5___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 6 T 9 A___calls

River - (6.75 BB)

Hero: 6 8 4 8 2 5 T___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6 T 9 A xx___bets

Total pot: (8.75 BB - $525)


I'd like to have that bet back on the river.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 01:03 AM
Content Cliff's Notes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiggz
However, I will say that if your opponent doesn't realize this and wouldn't fold to a bet anyways then I can see checking 4th ... especially if they are willing to check it right back. Then if you catch better than they do on 5th you can feel very good about having a better 4card hand than you opponent and get value from them on the big bet streets, w/o putting any bets in bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
I simply feel the play is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by electrical
In this case, you're playing a guy who won't fold, you have a crappy hand and a board that's only a pip or two better than his, and you can't shorten his odds because extra bets went in on Third... But not betting here with a pair of eights when we're certain to get called by a hand with a live draw doesn't seem like it's necessarily a mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
I simply feel the play is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrennen
Given that quote, I don't think that SG believes that he should always bet 4th here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
I simply feel the play is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davdob
There is no question at all, in a standard hand, not betting fourth is wrong. You are right that most of this post is trying to come up with a very limited set of circumstances where it might be right often in a very flip way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
I simply feel the play is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davdob
I dont know enough about Razz or the players involved in this hand to speculate on any legit basis if this was one of those cases. But, gaming it out a bit isnt totally useless so long as nobody conclues you normally shouldnt bet in this spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
I simply feel the play is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrennen
1) If Hero was stealing, or paired on 4th, he's at best a slight dog to Villain's range.
2) Villain's not folding (not on this street anyway).
3) By betting, Hero convinces Villain of nothing other than the fact that Hero is capable of making a pro forma bet.


Just my humble opinion...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
I simply feel the play is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davdob
I just dont know enough about Villian to be able to say if 1 or 2 is true.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SGspecial
I'd like to have that pot back on the river.
SIWAS?!?!?!!!

-ChipsAhoya
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 01:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SGspecial
Content Cliff's Notes:
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 01:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy B
Blood bank imo.
heh, luckily its not as much getting of the $ as it is the depositing of it...
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 01:40 AM
Your quote post is uncalled for, imo. Look, they are grasping for reasons because YOU played the hand. Too many have had too much SGKoolAid for too long. You really pushed me to say it, but its true.

Only Oscillator and bit of Rusty had enough game to come out and point the finger a bit.

I just opened the door, so the rest could see it.

Your play is transparent and you played the hand poorly. Place some poker, stop playing your ABCs.

Last edited by Joe Tall; 01-22-2009 at 01:45 AM.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
Your quote post is uncalled for, imo. Look, they are grasping for reasons because YOU played the hand. Too many have had too much SGKoolAid for too long. You really pushed me to say it, but its true.

Only Oscillator and bit of Rusty had enough game to come out and point the finger a bit.

I just opened the door, so the rest could see it.

Your play is transparent and you played the hand poorly. Place some poker, stop playing your ABCs.
Joe, regardless of whether or not people like SG, you have not once explained WHY you feel this is a bad play. Instead, you've made several snide comments about the regular posters in this forum. SG wasn't even the OP, so I don't understand what your problem is with him, and, apparently, most of the forum.

It's not transparent if you mix your play up by checking 4th w/ a good hand, which may get people to call 5th drawing dead. You can c/r good hands, and you can throw in c/r bluffs w/ bad hands if you want, too.

-ChipsAhoya
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipsAhoya
SIWAS?!?!?!!!

-ChipsAhoya
/Thread
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oscillator
/Thread
no
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 02:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipsAhoya
Joe, regardless of whether or not people like SG, you have not once explained WHY you feel this is a bad play. Instead, you've made several snide comments about the regular posters in this forum. SG wasn't even the OP, so I don't understand what your problem is with him, and, apparently, most of the forum.
I can agree with this, I have not laid out my reason. If I get time, and I plan too, I will work up the analysis.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
I can agree with this, I have not laid out my reason. If I get time, and I plan too, I will work up the analysis.
[x] enough time to insult the stud forum regulars
[ ] enough time to discuss strategy

-ChipsAhoya
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
I can agree with this, I have not laid out my reason. If I get time, and I plan too, I will work up the analysis.
Great leave me waiting in suspense thank you very much for the sleepless night that I am now not going to get you pop out of no where and flame SG I mean why never see you give advice here before? whats the deal?
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipsAhoya
[x] enough time to insult the stud forum regulars
[ ] enough time to discuss strategy

-ChipsAhoya
this is another thing you could prob agree with Joe
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 02:48 AM
Joe Tall has contributed a lot to this forum and is a badass. He could have put it more politely I guess, but I pretty much see where he's coming from. He sees this as ABC/first level play, and I don't think even SG would disagree.

My perspective is that ABC play gets the money against some players on whom a balanced strategy would be spewy if it isn't +EV in a hand in isolation, since their exposure in the game will be limited and they aren't tuned-in enough to be deceived. Once a villain has seen the ABC line, that line can be used against him later if he's paying attention, or the same hand can be played the same way if not.

We've all played in games where there was a spot on whom advanced play is both wasted and unnecessary. When in a game like that, just get the money.
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 02:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by electrical
Joe Tall has contributed a lot to this forum and is a badass.
lets make his head bigger ehh?
RAZZ hand From SGspecial Quote
01-22-2009 , 03:07 AM


Certified Badass.
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