I logged into FTP to chat with one of my friends and came across SGspecial at one of the Razz tables. I decided to observe a hand or two, and I watched a HU hand that was played out between Paul Wolfe and Yourself. I don't know who he is, if he's any good, but they have him listed as a pro, but w/e. Here's the hand in rough form:

K brings it in.

All big cards fold to SG, who completes with a 4.
Paul Wolfe (PW) raises with a 6, the K folds, SG calls and they go HU.

Turn:

SG: (xx xx) 48 Checks

PW: (xx xx) 6T Check

5TH:

SG (xx xx) 482 Bets

PW (xx xx) 6T9 Calls

Question:

Why are you checking 4th.

Why is he calling 5th.

Did your check 4th to entice him to call on later streets.


I left out the limit and the remainder of the hand because it was 4th/5th that I found to be a bit unusual yet interesting. Not doubting your play in the least----Razz is probably my least played game, but if you don't mind sharing your thoughts...

He is checking 4th so the other guy will call 5th.

Even if the other guy has a pretty good down range, SG is a 2:1 favorite (er, assuming he has good cards down himself). It's a risk, sure. It's not something I'd do often because I can count on most of my opponents to call 4th anyway. It's still something I do occaisionally against more aggressive opponents who will read the situation as their 4-card-T being the best hand.

If SGs down cards are kinda bad, then on 5th he's probably become a favorite and can bet. So possibly 4th paired him or he has a T in the hole?

I do not know PW's game, but here's how I would analyze it.

It looks like SG has 2 wheels and a brick in the hole (or paired his 8).

If he had a legitimate 4 card 8 on 4th, it's not clear why he wouldn't bet as a reasonable favorite (likely 2:1) since it's vulnerable to a bad break of cards on 5th street.

If he has a 3 card 8, he is barely behind PWs likely range and will take the free card (PW will not likely bet the 10 for fear of a check-raise). Now, he could of course rep the 4 card 8, but because of the double bet on 3rd, PW will not fold a relative brick on 4th. Which puts SG in a good spot on 5th only if the cards break good for him and poorly for PW. So there is little value in betting as a bluff since you have no real fold equity.

In summary, if SG has a 4 card 8 on 4th, it seems like he'd always bet to increase his EV (since he's the favorite), but there is no point in bluffing since he only folds out a hand that PW bluff-raised on 3rd (which I'm guessing is a tiny part of his range).

I think this is too simplistic unless PW is a fish who doesn't understand razz at all. SG "should" bet any 4 card 8, so not betting is going to make him suspicious that he paired or has a brick. It's true that PW is probably not going to fold anything decent on 4th but betting in that case would often be better than checking, if checking turns your hand problems face up.

I suspect that at this level a balanced strategy is going to be expected out of SG, and that sometimes he'll be checking an actual 4 card 8 here, and sometimes he'll have a brick or a pair. I don't really have anything but speculation but I personally would expect him to have a 4 card 8 (or 9) something like 2/3 of the time here.

sg could be range balancing, could have paired, have a 4678 or he expects wolfe to bet if hes one of those players that just bets whenever its checked to him.

wolfe calls 5th because he doesnt think sg is good enough to check a 4 card 8 on 4th and/or is just bad.

i really dont know sg's game well enough to give an accurate comment.

Or it looks like he was on a steal with a not-awful hand in the hole like a T of his own, thought his opponent would put him on a steal and might raise pretty light. On 4th, he might check to see if his WO bets into him, to get an idea of his holdings and decide if he's going to try and pick it up with a bet on 5th if he catches. When that very nice 5th street shows, he is now actually ahead instead of theoretically and bets.

I have about ten different scenarios that work in this situation for this action with this player. Be interesting if he posts the hand. I put his hole card range at A2-KK.

hes stealing and has no fe on 4th so hes waiting to take the pot down on 5th. id prefer to bet forth to make my hand look a little more credible on later streets but sgs range still looks like a 9 at very best generally. paul believes his draw is live and it is, but its a pretty gross call still.

sg prob also knows paul never folds so making his hand look credible is generally a futile endeavor.

I have no idea what cards SG has here. Depending on game flow he could have anything from A3 to a pair. I do not think he would defend a naked steal with something like KK in the hole, so the very worst hands are not in the picture.

stealing with two good cards is sometimes enough because if villain defends by calling the better board should take the pot on Fourth most of the time. If villain defends by restealing, as here, then both for image and size of the pot he's certainly not folding Fourth for one bet no matter what. A bet from SG on Four is only going to make the pot big enough that his FE is shot unless he continues to outflop villain for several streets.

On Fifth, SG's line looks like it could be nonsense, which is why lines like this are effective if he actually has the current nuts, and I would expect him to have the nuts here some of the time.

I would not narrow SG's range significantly until I saw further action, but if I were playing villain's hand I would not be calling a bet on Fifth. Even naked stealing hands like small pairs are now favored over a T9, and there are solid hands in the range where villain needs running cards even if he's good in the hole.

+1000000 on every point

Paul wolfe is terrible and doesnt know how to fold.

This is probably the key to analyzing the hand then. I've never heard of him.

Honestly, I think SG is playing ABC poker here, checking when behind and betting when ahead.

On 4th, given his actual down cards (of course I don't know them, but a ten and a wheel card would be my best guess) and Paul's range, he's probably a slight dog and so he checks.

On 5th street, he has the better 4 card hand (better draw), so he bets.

I'd guess SG is thinking "station" ... "3bb streets" .... "How much equity does my range have against his hand in this situation" ... "3bb streets again"

This is exactly why I did it.

A+

So, how did this play out?

Thats a lot of quotes to describe a mis-click.

You shoulda been a politician.








Lis<--assuming we will never see this hand posted

so, what did I have?

OH! NO!! HE!!! DIDN'T!!!!

-ChipsAhoya

87482

Someone had to. The only other reasonable reply in this is oscillator and a bit of Rusty Brooks.

I think SG got out of line on 3rd in this hand as not betting 4th is terrible unless he is in fact behind. My guess is SG has a brick or pair in the hole and knows paul wolfe isn't folding to a bet on 4th.
I've seen SG check 4th when it looks like he caught good before but had jack in the hole or paired.
wheeee

LDO

Reason is overrated

I do think in this situation, where you have an opponent that cant find the fold button its fine to wait till 5th to let him make an even more humongous mistake. But I cant say I have the inside reads on Razz players.