Need some expert razz advice -

I was in a hand earlier tonight and wanted to know who you guys thought played the hand wrong.

We are eight handed, in a tournament, with 6 low cards showing as the hand begins. I have an eight on top, with a 69 behind. I'm shortstacked, and realize I need to make a move to advance in the tournament (we're about two hours in) .

I complete with the 8 showing, with just a few players left with action. No calls in front of me.

Player A is showing a 5, and calls. We go headsup to fourth street, where I catch a 9 and he catches a 5 to pair his only two cards showing. I lead out, he raises me to put me all in. He turns over a 64, and of course happens to make a 6 low by 6th street.

I'm curious as to whether or not his move, with a paired 55 against my 89 is a wise/good play, and what his thinking would be to race me to the river with a paired board on fourth.

Am I wrong in thinking that a paired board, on fourth, is about as bad as it gets? I'm not totally new to razz, but it's not something I play to pay bills either...

Hi Honzoh - I'm not a razz expert but I do occasionally play a few hands of razz in the razz rotation of a HORSE game.

I'd fold your three starting cards.

Villain has 4-6-5-5 against your Y-Z-8-9? And Villain raises to force you to fold or go all-in? Villain has three draws to catch two and beat your 98?

Assuming you have two different ranks lower than eight, Villain is clearly the under-dog (if that is of any satisfaction to you). But by betting, Villain may think he might scare you away. Thus he may feel he gains some "fold equity" by betting. (Fold equity is intangible).

To get a rough idea of Villain's perspective, just take the six cards Villain can see out of the deck, shuffle up, and deal out three card sequences. There will be fifteen of these sequences with one card left over. I think you'll find it's about 9 to 6, something like that, Villain will miss ending up with an eight or better for low.

Thus I think you played correctly by calling the raise at this stage of the tournament. (You needed to make a move and you were the favorite).

Now I'm going to move your post to the forum where it belongs, the stud forum. I'll leave a marker in the other games forum so that you and anyone else who has read your post will know where it went.

Buzz
other games moderator

The question is really a tournament theory question not a Razz playing strategy question.

I ran a simulation of your opponents hand against you holding A289 and he would have been 60/40 dog rather then the 60/40 favorite he actually was. Given that he only had to put in one more small bet (which put you all in) to go to the river then he made a reasonable play. For one additional small bet he could knock one more player out and if you won then one additional small bet in your stack probably would not be a threat to him.

Since you did not give information about stack sizes, number of spots paying or how many players remained this is all kind of speculative since your strategy is influenced by so many things of which your actual hand is just a small part of the equation.

If I was playing and had an 698, saw 6 low cards behind and was short stack then I would have waited untill I had a good/decent 3 card low, with a very low door card, since the odds are pretty good that someone would come in against you. I am not fond of playing with an 8 up regardless of my hole cards let alone when the other players know that I am commited to getting my remaining chips into the pot.

Welcome to the Stud forum.

If you're looking for expert advice, then first you need to provide as much information as possible about the hand in question (preferably in the form of a converted HH). Secondly, you will have to decide who is qualified to offer such advice. Part of the answer you seek will be determined by the pot equity that the villain believes he has on 4th st. To figure this out, you could deal out sequences of cards in the back seat of your Buick while you fade the white line back to Dallas from Houston, or you could step into the 21st century and use a razz hand simulator.

I think the villain had to believe that there was no way you'd make a "move" here in middle position with a 9 in the hole, but obviously he underestimated you. From his perspective you'd be holding a 2-card 7 or better in the hole, with an 89 up top, giving him 41% pot equity if the hand goes to showdown. He is clearly priced in to get you all-in if you can't even cover a raise on 4th st, and while it's rare he has the best hand he probably didn't want to be faced with a decision on 5th st if the cards broke badly again. Therefore, his play on 4th was fine -- but so was yours. Since you are repping a 4-card 98, many opponents would fold here if they had a brick in the hole higher than a 9. It's definitely possible that he called your completion on 3rd with a hand like (J4)5 and while you'd be technically ahead of such a holding you'd be much better off if he folded and you didn't have to risk your last chips.

Good luck in all your future razz adventures.

if your shorstacked id put you in and not care so yes his play is correct

What I'd like to know is: what were the antes relative to your stack? The big problem to me is the bolded part - you have a semi-horrible high card hand and the babies are dead - so what can you draw to? Big cards. So - if at all possible - just wait. I'd rather play a (7J)4 to a better board than what you had.

As to your question: I would have put you in with his hand, too.

Thanks for all the replies guys! (and thanks for the razz calculator)

Maybe this topic deserves it's own thread, but in my opinion, pairing your door card on fourth isn't always a disaster. I would rather pair my door card than catch a king, for example.

There's a few reasons:

1. Pairing my door card will usually give me position for the rest of the hand, which is very valuable.

2. Pairing my door card means there is one less good card for my opponent to catch.

3. When I pair my door card, my opponent will frequently bet with a hand that is an underdog to mine. For example, lets say I raise on third with 5-2-A and pair the 5 on fourth. If my opponent started with a seven up and now catches a queen, he'll often bet and I will raise for value, knowing that he is still an underdog to win and I will have position later in the hand. This sort of raise does wonders for your image!

Hi Alex, and welcome. You make some good points here, though they are kind of tangential to the OP's situation of (xx)98 vs. (xx)55. In cases where both players catch a bad card on 4th st, then you're correct that pairing is better in this narrow range of scenarios. The nice thing about #3 is that when you do raise as a favorite (which you are vs. a Q7 or K7, but not a J7) the villain will usually be happy to cap it with you, so instead of a thin value raise for 0.04 SB, it turns into a trip to valuetown for 0.12 SB! Ok, maybe not valuetown but still a nice edge. Of course, you have to be careful not to fold 5th too weakly if you jam it up on 4th...

Sure, you could go that way... You raise as a 52:48 favorite (assuming he started with a random three-card 7), gaining an extra 0.04 SBs (0.02 BBs) of equity in the pot. But are you giving away 0.02 BBs worth of information by raising? Will your opponent save himself a big bet later in the hand 1 time out of 50 because you telegraphed your hand on 4th street?

I think you can raise your 5-5 board into a 7-Q board profitably, but you probably want to be raising as an underdog occasionally as well.

I was trying to figure out just what the weight of the pair was against a brick. I started with the same two hands, no dead cards. I arranged it so the paired player cannot know if his opponent has the pair card.

346J 53%
6344 47%

346Q 51%
6344 49%

346K 50%
6344 50%

So, what if we pair a card that our opponent does need?

264J 53%
6343 47%

Maybe the no change was because he had a slightly better starting hand - so:

546J 51%
6343 49%

Giving opp higher starting hand, so we have a card he needs and lower high card:

247J 52%
6343 48%

Higher starting hand - worst possible brick:

247K 47%
6343 53%

It seems to me, unless in the worst possible case for our opponent, it doesn't make sense to bet or raise a pot that is paired on equity alone. Other factors, of course, like dead cards in a full ring game or positional advantage, or a read on opp might sway you.