In Razz, is it OK to Open Limp into the pot (first to act) with a playable hand, but not a hand that you normally would want to raise with based on your cards, door, the cards that are out, and your position etc.?

Or, first-in, should you take a raise or fold approach?

My main game is 6max Limit Holdem, and the prevailing wisdom from most experts and my own experience is not to Open Limp into any pots...ever...with very few exceptions. You either come in with guns blazing and weed out the riff-raff (or charge them double), or don't come in at all.

Is it the same with Razz?

* If it depends on position, at how many seats off the Bring-In does First-to-Act become Raise-or-Fold, if at any point?

* If Open Limping is OK, what are some examples of your hand/board/position when you would do it.

Tom,

I mostly take the raise or fold approach, and most in here will tell you that this way is not very from optimal for Razz. There are situations where it is correct or at least ok to open limp. Im not sure I understand when they are, so I raise or fold.

If you are open-limping, it should be for a reason.

The default with almost any playable hand should be to raise, principally because no starting hand has any showdown value yet, and you are often glad to take the pot, no matter how small, without having to make a hand. In Razz, starting hand equities run very close together, so it is rare that any hand has a huge equity edge over another, removing one of the reasons for slow-playing.

Once a game has an established dynamic, and you know who the aggressive players are, who will complete light, who overvalues his starting hands, who gets hung up on draws, etc, you can start to target certain tendencies with specific non-standard plays, and one of those plays is limping.

Limping with the intent to raise is done to build a big pot from early position with an extremely strong hand -- say three wheel cards with several pair cards out and needed cards live -- and you would do it when you were in early position but had relative position on a player who tended to complete into multi-way pots.

Limping with a medium-strength hand that can't represent great strength (say a 3-card Eight that is playable because of the exposed cards, but which has its worst card exposed) is common. If the betting goes ape behind you, you can bow out, but if there is only a fraction of a bet to pay, such a hand can be profitable, and a limp/raise may even be called-for if you can isolate a weak player with an obviously inferior hand.

There are some excellent players who limp to disguise the strength of their hands, and they do this by making such limps inscrutable -- they limp with big hands, marginal ones and occasionally with pure crap. This is only worthwhile against observant opponents, and again, is done for a reason: to manipulate the meta-game and exploit current table dynamics.

There are several animated threads about this technique buried in the archives here, and it is worth reading them.

Open-limping in stud games is not the cardinal sin that it is in shorthanded LHE. That said, if you never open-limped in razz, you wouldn't be far wrong. Personally, I don't open-limp in razz because it wouldn't fit in with my overall game-plan. I mainly play razz in HORSE sngs, and I consider it my fourth- or fifth-best game in that rotation, so part of the reason for my approach is damage control.

(I play O/8 pretty well if there are six or more to the flop and I can stay awake. I don't know how to play heads-up pots or shorthanded games, so I'm frequently a live one.)

Hi electrical,

This is exactly the type of hand I had in mind for this question.

Another might be a Three Card Eight with the eight buried but with some of your cards out, especially if they are yet to act.

Why would you limp this hand? The only time you want to represent weakness is when you are strong - you open-limp the 8 when it's in the door, because obviously, everyone knows what you have. Then, when you open-limp your monster, you have given them the impression you limp 8 or worse.

A lot of open-limping value comes from knowing that the other players know that you do open-limp strong hands. This way, you can play very marginal hands and not get r/r , because you will often be 3-betting here... then you get a cheap shot at the pot on 4th.


Anyway, it's essential strategy, especially short-handed. When/Why you do it depends on the gameflow. Generally, you want to balance your ranges - get more value for strong hands and for weak hands (that you otherwise might be folding).

Have you ever made a not thought out post? Ever? 897 gems and growing

the only real times i find myself ever openlimping in razz is when i decide to play a hand like 23-T or 28-J with the T/J up because of pot odds and there are low cards behind me. what basically ends up happening is that at least 1 of the low cards is going to complete or reraise you either way, so youre better off limp-calling rather than complete-calling with your T since your pot odds are drastically better and if 2 or more low cards decide to jam 3rd you can get away from your hand for a single bringin rather than a full completion. other than that, i dont like open-limping any low card.

hehehe

Every poker problem has a solution. This one looks like an ashtray.

I think there are situations that open limping is ok. I might do it with some rough 3card 7s or 8s when I want to play the hand for 1 bet at most and there are small cards behind me. But, generally speaking, you should then be open limping really strong hands, to balance out your range and not become too predictable.

Mike, as gifted a player as you are, you should be able to see what's wrong here. First, your weakness is out for all to see. This is too exploitable for your opponents. Second, the low cards behind you are likely to raise. You would need to call apx 1 1/2 times more to play on with a quite apparent vulnerable hand.

Gifted players know when to make this sort of play, and against whom, so they can reexploit the players who would try to exploit them.

He didn't specify anything like that. He just outlined a strategy that would make your hair stand on end. I've certainly limped in with a T in the door - in steal position with ONE baby to act, who knew me and I knew. The post referred to multiple small cards to act. What kind of pot odds could there possibly be to justify this without some serious further explanation? And if there was enough raising before it ever got to him that he had the odds, all the more reason to fold.

AND - if you have all these real advanced Razz strategies up your sleeve someplace, please make a post where you outline when we're supposed to be playing these bricks in the door.

Until I see this guy play some seriously "gifted" Razz myself, it's just bad advice.

lis, he's a pretty good all-around player. http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=74453

But I agree that there was no specific situation stipulated in his post other than:

...which would indicate a pretty passive table. Still, I would rather have the high card buried than exposed.

[ ] RAZZ victories



Cliff notes:
These plays are not terrible, and balance each other well:
i) Limping with the intent to raise a completion from EP with an extremely strong hand.
ii) Limping with a playable 3-card Eight (or higher) that has its worst card exposed that is likely to be raised behind.
iii) Limping with a playable, but rough, 3-card Eight with any card exposed (and preferably some hole cards already dead).

Summary
and

[ ] Razz victories
[x] HORSE victories

Just sayin.

I didn't say he was a gifted player at razz, nor did I say that piece of advice was good. I will say that a gifted razz player doesn't need to fold a (23)T kind of hand 100% of the time, and that I believe Tstone could become a gifted razz player if he figures out some good answers to his good questions.

Well, that's the problem - and look at the number of his posts as well. I'm afraid I've become some overprotective mother-hen to newbie Razz players - it's just painful to watch them come in and donk off their money making exactly this kind of play. This poster is a very fine poker player and he has influence. So - I'm going to jump on this very bad advice.

I don't mean to be real rude to the kid, he looks like he's smarter than I am by a long shot - but not about this - not without a lot of caveats.

Then let's talk about when to play (A2)T. (You can answer his questions in the other thread he started where he asked, since only you and about three other people around here are competant to do so. Then I'll go read that and maybe I'll be a gifted player someday.)

I, personally, complete with (A2)T in this situation where everyone has folded to me:

(A2)T 9 K A J 8 Q T

I'm completing to make it clear to the 9 I have two wheel cards. If he calls, I have an idea what he has, because he isn't calling with (J7)9. If he raises, he's a LAG or has two wheels of his own.

Please tell me why I am wrong/right, how you do it, and so forth.

Listening you want to limp in this spot because by raising you allow him to play perfectly. He is going to fold when he has garbage and either call or raise when he has you beat. You get value from these situations by limping and enticing an overly aggressive player to try and steamroll you, not by saying "I have two wheel cards, please only play if you have me beat"

Well, he might play with (78)9. OK - I never say "please." I say, "You'd better have something, kiddo, because I do." I'm not afraid of the next guy's action, I am afraid of the BI staying in with his (A2)K and winning the stupid hand. But I also (I shouldn't say this stuff outloud) complete with (JK)T sometimes in this position, after I have won it once with my nice wheel cards.

I think a limp here is power poker - which you play very well. If you had the 9, I probably would limp, expect you to complete with anything, and call you down even with a pretty marginal hand. But if 4th street came xxT9 to me and xx9T to you - I'd be check/raising. How fun is that?

I love Razz.

nh.

heh I also probably shouldn't say this outloud but I am rarely if ever completing the 9 in this spot after I limp unless I actually have it. By raising any two hole cards w/ the 9 in this spot you are doing exactly what the T wants you to do. Now if the positions are switched and I have a 9 w/ a T/K behind me then obviously things open up a bit

I'm not going to outline a complete strategy for when to play with bad upcards, other than to say that there are many cases where players who refuse to play with a bad upcard are giving away EV. In your example, I think a complete is a perfectly reasonable play.