I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the micro-newbie basic kinda Razz game. But the more I play at higher stakes, the stranger the play seems to me. (I took my first tentative flyer into 10/20 territory - found that even odder than this.) I'm trying to figure out what is like - normal expected play. So, here is a 3/6 - not real high but this popped up at 5/10 also with another player and if this is going to happen at higher limits as a standard kind of play, I'd like to hear about it. Also - am I supposed to start doing this? Do the high stakes players here do this? This a standard playbook recommended move? Looks like he had a hand he felt he couldn't lay down that was could easily be a loser, so he raised instead of called with his "look-I-have-a-wheel-draw" board.


Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.58 SB)

Hero: 2 A 7___raises___calls
Seat 2: xx xx A___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 6___folds
Seat 5: xx xx K___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J___folds
Seat 7: xx xx A___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3___folds

4th Street - (4.92 SB)

Hero: 2 A 7 8___bets
Seat 2: xx xx A K___calls

5th Street - (3.46 BB)

Hero: 2 A 7 8 T___bets
Seat 2: xx xx A K J___calls

6th Street - (5.46 BB)

Hero: 2 A 7 8 T 3___bets
Seat 2: xx xx A K J 5___calls

River - (7.46 BB)

Hero: 2 A 7 8 T 3 4___bets___raises
Seat 2: xx xx A K J 5 xx___raises___calls

Total pot: (13.46 BB)

bad bluff on the end is all.

Is this standard? I'd say no.

Should you be doing it? No.

It's not a good raise, even if you know villain will raise all 7's. DUCY?

-ChipsAhoya

I don't like the re-raise on 7th, but it turned out to be a good read.

I think your answer is that this player isn't that good, and the stakes don't matter in that regard. His peel on Fifth is suicide.

I have not seen a firm correlation between the stakes and the caliber of the opponent until you get a table full of regulars, and those are games you can skip anyway.

Do I see he could have sucked out on me on the river because I don't know what his downcards are? ? Yes, I do. Chips, I am generally a total devotee of the river check/call. This was ... inexplicable instinct on my part. I rarely ever do this. So, I agree with you.

But I bet, since he left the table instantly thereafter, he won't try that with me again. So perhaps it has long-range benefits.

So, honestly, do you do this?

I wouldn't give you a ton of credit if you're raising a 7 into 2 babies until I saw you show do a couple of wheel cards after making such an aggressive play against me.

In seat 2 I pop you back on third with the villains hand.

I might peel 5th too. This depending on my third street read of you. I have some outs as the villain and reasonable pot odds. You may also catch bad and don't have a monster yet.

I complete this in OPs spot every time. It's a good hand.

In villains spot, I might raise or call, tending towards raising.

You'll need 2 cards under ten, for sure, and you'll need hero not to catch also. Calling 5th is bad - villain is not only a 4:1 dog, getting pretty bad odds to blindly call down, but also has a distinct playing disadvantage.

You mean the completion is an aggressive play? Well, huh. To me, if I limp/raise it's aggressive. Here, I am just saying to the table, "I have a real good 7 here." But many players do complete with junk, I could be on a three-off steal or something, I guess.

I'm just a newbie at this so these may be a dumb questions ....

Is the problem with the raise on 7th that you will most likely only get called by a hand that has you covered ?

Given the board, villain needs to have 3 down cards that are {2,3,4,6} of which we know where 5 of the 16 are. Does this make a difference ?

Thanks

worse than what that guy did @ 5/10, for sure.

Well the villain doesn't like holding money in his account that is for sure. Hope you marked him down as one of your new friend

The villain should have folded on 5th. I love people who chase from here (yum yum).

His riase on the end was really bad as he could only beat a 876.

I could understand if he raised with an 86 for value, as there is no way you are going to re-raise back given his board (though obviously you did, which is strange given his board and he knows the best you can have is a 7, so any wheel or 6 low and he caps).

No, it's obvious he *could* have sucked out on you, but he raises you with a 5, a 6, and a 7 (or at least I would) and it appears that he would need one card for each of those, so it's a 1/3 chance you get an extra bet, and a 2/3 chance you lose two bets when he r/r you. Even if he raises every single 8, you still lose two bets 1/2 the time and gain one bet 1/2 the time. It's not whether he could suck out on you or not, it's how the river plays with the range he could have.

Is this a good thing?

-ChipsAhoya

his fifth is horrible, and its not an uncommon sight all the way to the top.

as far as 7th is concerned i dont like the raise so much. the issue of betting vs check calling is one that should weigh more towards checking if you know your opponent bluffs 7ths ( since theres a greater chance he will lose this hand ), and betting if you have no information regarding this.

Stuff like this is so rampant at every level that if you find yourself in a game where it isn't happening you should probably get up and leave. I saw Eli Elezra play a similar hand even worse than this at 2k/4k HORSE table.

One of the most difficult things to do in poker is to not allow someone doing something insanely stupid prompt you to try to do something even more stupid. This is easily my biggest leak, and I assume I am not the only one.

I never understand anything anyone says when they talk like this - but I'm glad you said it, because I know a lot of people read these threads who will understand and they need the information.

Yes, it is. Because I am one who actually will fold a river when I think I am beat. And, now, I hope, he will only be raising rivers when he has me beaten.

It would be even better if he only raised rivers when you had him beat.

It would still be OK if he just raised rivers when you had him beat more than 50% of the time. Then you could just always call.

Your action may have just been instinct like you say. Perhaps without consiously and methodically thinking about it, you figured something like someone who would make those calls on 4th and 5th was a donkey that probably didn't have as good a hand as you.

Have you read BLINK? It's about that kind of thing.

Or even better-better if he only did it when I knew I had him beat!

Lis<--dreaming of poker heaven....