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Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi)

07-13-2009 , 09:31 PM
I've been reviewing my poker tracker stats for Stud Hi after about 4,600 hands. I've had aces in my starting three 53 times. From that, my average BB/Hand is +0.51 and my win % is 64.15. I've raised on 3rd street 86.79% of the time. I typically play 1/2 and 2/4.

Somehow, I don't think this is a great win rate. If I am correct, any advice on playing aces? I'm about half way through 7CS4AP and have re-read the section on big pairs a couple times. Thanks.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-13-2009 , 09:34 PM
post some of the ones you lost
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-13-2009 , 09:44 PM
Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 Limit Stud $0.40 Ante - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

3rd Street:
Seat 1: xx xx Q
Seat 2: xx xx 4
Seat 3: xx xx K
Hero: A T A
Seat 5: xx xx 7
Seat 6: xx xx 6
Seat 7: xx xx 8
Seat 8: xx xx A

Seat 2 brings in for $0.50, Seat 3 folds, Hero completes, Seat 5 folds, Seat 6 calls, Seat 7 folds, Seat 8 folds, Seat 1 calls, Seat 2 folds

4th Street: (4.85 SB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx Q Q
Hero: A T A A
Seat 6: xx xx 6 4

Hero bets, Seat 6 calls, Seat 1 calls

5th Street: (5.425 BB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx Q Q 3
Hero: A T A A 4
Seat 6: xx xx 6 4 K

Hero bets, Seat 6 folds, Seat 1 calls

6th Street: (7.425 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx Q Q 3 3
Hero: A T A A 4 J

Seat 1 bets, Hero calls

7th Street: (9.425 BB) (2 players)
Seat 1: xx xx Q Q 3 3 xx
Hero: A T A A 4 J 5

Seat 1 bets, Hero calls

Spoiler:
Final Pot: 11.425 BB
Seat 1 shows Qh 6c Qd Qc 3c 3s 2d (a full house, Queens full of Threes)
Hero mucks Ad Tc Ah As 4s Jh 5c
Seat 1 wins 10.925 BB
(Rake: $2.00)
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-13-2009 , 09:45 PM
Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 Limit Stud $0.40 Ante - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

3rd Street:
Seat 1: xx xx K
Seat 2: xx xx 9
Seat 3: xx xx 5
Hero: A A Q
Seat 5: xx xx K
Seat 7: xx xx 3
Seat 8: xx xx 5

Seat 7 brings in for $0.50, Seat 8 calls, Seat 1 folds, Seat 2 folds, Seat 3 folds, Hero completes, Seat 5 calls, Seat 7 folds, Seat 8 calls

4th Street: (4.65 SB) (3 players)
Hero: A A Q T
Seat 5: xx xx K T
Seat 8: xx xx 5 5

Seat 8 checks, Hero bets, Seat 5 folds, Seat 8 calls

5th Street: (4.325 BB) (2 players)
Hero: A A Q T 3
Seat 8: xx xx 5 5 9

Seat 8 checks, Hero checks

6th Street: (4.325 BB) (2 players)
Hero: A A Q T 3 4
Seat 8: xx xx 5 5 9 6

Seat 8 bets, Hero calls

7th Street: (6.325 BB) (2 players)
Hero: A A Q T 3 4 2
Seat 8: xx xx 5 5 9 6 xx

Seat 8 bets, Hero raises, Seat 8 3-bets, Hero caps!, Seat 8 calls

Spoiler:
Final Pot: 14.325 BB
Hero shows Ah As Qh Ts 3h 4h 2h (a flush, Ace high)
Seat 8 shows 8h 6h 5h 5s 9h 6d 5c (a full house, Fives full of Sixes)
Seat 8 wins 13.825 BB
(Rake: $2.00)
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-13-2009 , 10:16 PM
1st hand, pretty obvious he has trip queens otherwise he wouldnt call u when u have open aces, quite easily u can fold the river without filling up. it doesnt make sense for him to have two pair on 4th either. unless u raised with specifically a hand like (KJ)A on 3rd street, all his two pairs are losing to your two pairs (because ur gonna have a minimum of aces up on 4th a huge % of the time) / trips, and its not likely he is gonna try and call down as of 4th to hit a 4 outer (which could possibly not be good even if he makes it)

2nd hand, for the love of god bet 5th street, and on the river dont cap with a flush when other guy has a pair on the board (altho u certainly do make one raise)
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-13-2009 , 10:22 PM
Thanks for the help. These hands are over a week old, so I don't remember what state of mind I was in when I made the plays I did. In retrospect, yeah, I was pretty dumb.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 12:37 AM
86.79% seems too low, but I have no clue what my percentage is, and I'm not going to pretend I play optimally. Neither of the hands you posted are anything to beat yourself up over. Maybe you save a bet on the river on the first hand, but against an unknown at low limits, I'm not beaten until the other guy shows me his hand. On the second hand, I probably bet fifth, and I definitely don't cap the river.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 03:39 AM
I would claim to raise 100% with AA but, when I checked my stats, it's more like 85-90% when kicker is > 6 and 73-81% when its 6 or less. Maybe all those AAx bring-ins account for the discrepancy.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 04:33 AM
Having at last worked out how to filter by hand category, my average PFR is 83% and BB/hand is 1.03 for any AA combination.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 04:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
1st hand, pretty obvious he has trip queens otherwise he wouldnt call u when u have open aces, quite easily u can fold the river without filling up. it doesnt make sense for him to have two pair on 4th either. unless u raised with specifically a hand like (KJ)A on 3rd street, all his two pairs are losing to your two pairs (because ur gonna have a minimum of aces up on 4th a huge % of the time) / trips, and its not likely he is gonna try and call down as of 4th to hit a 4 outer (which could possibly not be good even if he makes it)

2nd hand, for the love of god bet 5th street, and on the river dont cap with a flush when other guy has a pair on the board (altho u certainly do make one raise)
im sorry if your opponent never raises 4th or 5th with trip queens there is no way I would assume villian was beating me.
h2 call 3 bet.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 07:29 AM
The reason for not raising 100% of the time PF sometimes occurs when I'm either heads up (I'm last to act and it's folded to me) or there are 5 or more callers and I know a raise won't knock anyone out.

Here's a more general hand that I'm not sure if I played well or not.

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 Limit Stud $0.20 Ante - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

3rd Street:
Seat 2: xx xx 6
Seat 3: xx xx 8
Seat 4: xx xx 3
Seat 5: xx xx K
Seat 6: xx xx 5
Seat 7: xx xx 2
Hero: A A 9

Seat 7 brings in for $0.25, Hero completes, Seat 2 calls, Seat 3 folds, Seat 4 folds, Seat 5 folds, Seat 6 folds, Seat 7 calls

4th Street: (4.4 SB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 6 6
Seat 7: xx xx 2 4
Hero: A A 9 3

Seat 2 checks, Seat 7 checks, Hero bets, Seat 2 calls, Seat 7 calls

5th Street: (5.2 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 6 6 K
Seat 7: xx xx 2 4 6
Hero: A A 9 3 K

Seat 2 checks, Seat 7 checks, Hero checks

6th Street: (5.2 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 6 6 K A
Seat 7: xx xx 2 4 6 A
Hero: A A 9 3 K Q

Seat 2 checks, Seat 7 bets, Hero calls, Seat 2 folds

7th Street: (7.2 BB) (2 players)
Seat 7: xx xx 2 4 6 A xx
Hero: A A 9 3 K Q 3

Seat 7 bets, Hero calls

Spoiler:
Final Pot: 9.2 BB
Seat 7 shows Jd Th 2c 4h 6h Ah Tc (a pair of Tens)
Hero shows As Ad 9c 3h Kh Qc 3d (two pair, Aces and Threes)
Hero wins 8.825 BB
(Rake: $0.75)
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 08:56 AM
Bet 5th? Think about this...maybe you are worried about the paired 6s but when a 6 comes on 5th and he has failed to bet out for the second time this is less likely. Maybe he has 2 pair? Well, you still have time to make 2 pair too. Maybe Seat 7 has a str8 and plans to CR 5th? Well, you won't find this out by checking behind. YOU MAY STILL BE IN FRONT...so you must bet. If one of them raises you can fold (if you want to).

Look at the hand that went to the river with you...why is this guy calling 3rd and 4th? BECAUSE HE IS AN IDIOT AND HE SHOULD PAY THE IDIOT TAX.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 08:19 PM
With 5 or more callers, you arent trying to thin out the field, but you should have well more than 16% equity such that its almost a crime not to get as much money in as possible. I realize you are making calls on later streets by chasers more correct, and I can see an argument for just calling with something like Qs, but I think with aces you should be full steam ahead so when they actually do hold up you are winning yourself a big pot to make up for the times when you lose.

Case in point is the hand you posted where you played very passive. I tend to shut down to a paired door card as well, but in this case when the 6 falls and villain checks again, I think you can fire.

As to your earlier hands, I probably call the first anyway even though you cant be good, but you easily lost a BB with that cap on the 2nd hand. Do that several times over those 53 aces and it isnt hard to see that you could be winning at a higher rate.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 09:51 PM
At risk of turning this into a "playing big pairs wrong?" thread, I played this hand today with Kings.

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 Limit Stud $0.20 Ante - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

3rd Street:
Seat 1: xx xx 8
Seat 3: xx xx A
Seat 4: xx xx 3
Seat 5: xx xx A
Seat 6: xx xx T
Hero: 5 K K
Seat 8: xx xx 2

Seat 8 brings in for $0.25, Seat 1 calls, Seat 3 folds, Seat 4 calls, Seat 5 folds, Seat 6 folds, Hero completes, Seat 8 folds, Seat 1 calls, Seat 4 calls

4th Street: (4.65 SB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 8 A
Seat 4: xx xx 3 2
Hero: 5 K K 3

Seat 1 checks, Seat 4 checks, Hero bets, Seat 1 calls, Seat 4 calls

5th Street: (3.825 BB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 8 A 4
Seat 4: xx xx 3 2 Q
Hero: 5 K K 3 4

Seat 1 checks, Seat 4 checks, Hero bets, Seat 1 calls, Seat 4 calls

6th Street: (6.825 BB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 8 A 4 K
Seat 4: xx xx 3 2 Q 6
Hero: 5 K K 3 4 4

Hero bets, Seat 1 calls, Seat 4 calls

7th Street: (9.825 BB) (3 players)
Seat 1: xx xx 8 A 4 K xx
Seat 4: xx xx 3 2 Q 6 xx
Hero: 5 K K 3 4 4 6

Hero bets, Seat 1 calls, Seat 4 folds

Spoiler:
Final Pot: 11.825 BB
Seat 1 shows Ah Ts 8c As 4h Kd Tc (two pair, Aces and Tens)
Hero shows 5c Kh Kc 3c 4s 4d 6c (two pair, Kings and Fours)
Seat 1 wins 11.325 BB
(Rake: $1.00)
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 10:35 PM
Quote:
The reason for not raising 100% of the time PF sometimes occurs when I'm either heads up (I'm last to act and it's folded to me) or there are 5 or more callers and I know a raise won't knock anyone out.
In the former case, it will look like a steal and you will get action. In the latter case, you're raising for value. I'm not saying you should raise 100% of the time, but you need a pretty good reason not to raise third street with Aces.

AA9 hand I bet fifth. Kings hand you played well.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 10:52 PM
Thanks for all of the help. I played my 5,000th hand today and my overall winning rate is a whopping 1.20BB/100 hands. Needless to say, I'm doing some serious analysis on my play. Gonna take a few days off, re-read 7CS4AP, install Wilson Turbo (just ordered) and step it up a bit.

I started at .50/1 and felt I could handle $1/$2. Had a good run there for a while and played $2/$4 for a while. Did well again. There's a $300 tourney at Mohegan next week that I wanted to see if I would be dead money or not and played a $69+$6 MTT. Finished 15th out of 62 (8 cashed) when the levels got insane, missed a hand, then got forced all in with (2Q)2. Definitely felt I was overmatched at some points (especially since a red FTP pro won the thing) and decided I was going to skip the Mohegan tourney.

That started what I'd like to call the mother of all downswings, but when you're 4 standard deviations out, kind of hard to call it a downswing any more. I've lost 9 out of my last 13 sessions down for a loss of (6.88)BB/100 hands from those sessions. Dropped back down to $1/$2 after the 4th losing session in a row and the bleeding hasn't stopped.

Again, I appreciate all the help. Any ideas on where to start looking to find my trouble spots?
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 11:04 PM
I doubt that you'd be dead money in that tournament. There are a lot of bad stud players in CT. I'm guessing that the FT tournament has a much tougher field.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-14-2009 , 11:15 PM
I think the $300 buy in, the fact it's at Mohegan, and a Stud Hi tourney would result in a small field where at least 50% would be on my level or better. Not exactly great odds. However, I'm going to go to Foxwoods that day and play either 5/10 or 10/20. I figure all the good players will be playing in the tourney. EV+?
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-15-2009 , 12:01 AM
All the tough players go to Mohegan and the donkeys go to Foxwoods? I've only ever played at Foxwoods in CT.

If you're playing cash games--and you may well be better off doing so--you're there to play folks who are on tilt after they bust out of the tournament.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-15-2009 , 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy B
All the tough players go to Mohegan and the donkeys go to Foxwoods? I've only ever played at Foxwoods in CT.
I don't know about the talent in the Mohegan stud games normally, but I think the field will probably be smaller given the smaller numbers the Mohegan poker room tends to attract overall.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-15-2009 , 08:13 AM
ill be playing it =]
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-15-2009 , 01:04 PM
See, chromakey, dead money for you right there.

Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-15-2009 , 06:44 PM
^ h8r
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-28-2009 , 11:15 PM
I believe I played this correctly, but in broader terms, when do you slow down with a big pair? If boards are non-threatening on 5th-6th streets, do you ever slow down? This is the second hand of the tournament, so obviously, no reads. Brag: still cashed anyways

Full Tilt Poker $5 + 0.50 Limit Stud Hi Tournament - t30/t60 Limit + t5 - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (): t1545 M = 19.31
Seat 2: t1390 M = 17.38
Seat 3: t1495 M = 18.69
Seat 5: t1495 M = 18.69
Seat 6: t1485 M = 18.56
Seat 7: t1500 M = 18.75
Seat 8: t1495 M = 18.69

3rd Street: (1.167 SB)
Hero: K 4 K___Hero raises
Seat 2: xx xx 2____Seat 2 brings in for $10____Seat 2 folds
Seat 3: xx xx T____Seat 3 folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6____Seat 5 folds
Seat 6: xx xx 8____Seat 6 calls____Seat 6 calls
Seat 7: xx xx J____Seat 7 completes____Seat 7 calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9____Seat 8 folds

4th Street: (7.5 SB) (3 players)
Hero: K 4 K 9___Hero bets
Seat 6: xx xx 8 5____Seat 6 calls
Seat 7: xx xx J 2____Seat 7 calls

5th Street: (5.25 BB) (3 players)
Hero: K 4 K 9 5___Hero bets
Seat 6: xx xx 8 5 A____Seat 6 checks____Seat 6 folds
Seat 7: xx xx J 2 7____Seat 7 checks____Seat 7 calls

6th Street: (7.25 BB) (2 players)
Hero: K 4 K 9 5 6___Hero bets
Seat 7: xx xx J 2 7 9____Seat 7 calls

7th Street: (9.25 BB) (2 players)
Hero: K 4 K 9 5 6 3___Hero checks___Hero calls
Seat 7: xx xx J 2 7 9 xx____Seat 7 bets

Spoiler:
Seat 7: showed [Qd Jh Js 2d 7c 9c 7d] and won (675) with two pair, Jacks and Sevens
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote
07-29-2009 , 01:32 PM
This looks about right. I'd lean towards value-betting the river in a cash game. You definitely want to bet fifth and give people a chance to fold, and sixth is definitely worth a bet heads-up.
Playing aces wrong? (Stud Hi) Quote

      
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