Hi, I come from limit holdem, and in that game the majority of the pros go with a raise or fold strategy preflop, never openlimping.

But in other games (stud stud8 razz omaha8) I'm seeing very good players sometimes advocating openlimping in a hand.

I'm . Why in these games is correct to openlimp and in limit holdem is usually never correct to do that? Or is the raise or fold strategy a good idea in all games?

I only play Razz, so I can't speak to anything else - including LHE - (ew) When you enter the pot on 3rd - what are you trying to communicate or accomplish? When you know that, and you know what elements of the hand contribute to the decisions, you know why you choose to limp or complete in and why each has value.

Ask yourself when you raise in with AA in LHE and when you limp/call or limp/raise? I don't know much about the game, but I do know no one is always doing anything, including only folding or raising.

In micro/low limit razz (and holdem) you are not far off the mark if you never open-limp. I think a lot of authors of introductory material use that as a simplification (appropriately) and just say never open-limp. If you read the micro/low limit holdem forums here you will find posters whose aversion to open-limping seems almost political or religious.

If you look at more advanced material (like this forum ) you will find open-limping recommended in some circumstances. For example, Winning in Tough Hold'em Games (the Stoxtrader book, if I have mangled the title) recommends sometimes open-limping in EP at 9-10 handed tables. They also recommend sometimes open-limping in the small blind.

I am a razz noob who plays in the micro/low universe and I rarely open-limp. In holdem I am much more experienced and play higher; there I open-limp more often.

Caution. Even lower content follows:
I watched a Poker After Dark a couple of months ago where Helmuth was talking to one of the other players about how stupid internet players are because they never open-limp in late position. (Poker After Dark is a televised NL holdem SNG, if you didn't know.) A while after that it is folded to the button who limps. Helmuth, who is the BB, says "Ooh, an advanced play." Small blind raises, Helmuth folds, limper folds.

Let me give you an example from NLHE which might explain - UTG raised to 3x , 2 callers ... you're on the button with JTs ... what's your play ? you're certainly not raising !

Most S8 hands want multi-way action - you don't want to be HU with a strong made hand - it depends on the texture/structure of the game, of course - like a really high ante, weak-tight game - just raise anything playable - but if there are weak-loose players in a low ante game just limp and let them in...

That example is not valid because you are not openlimping! In this post I'm talking about the times where you are the first to enter the pot, nobody called or raised yet.

Hmm ... you make a good point

Anyway - some of my thoughts on it are (assuming std game dynamics/structure) - mostly applicable in EP and FR

1) something like (Q2)3s ... I'll open limp that hand because I want to see 4th cheaply and it's useless HU - basically anything that needs multi-way action and you need to see 4th as cheaply as possible.

2) Obv, with over aggro players - open limp monster hands and get them 4-bet on 3rd - Especially if I open limp (23)Ks ... then I'll open limp (KK)K for deception

3) If u have players that peel 4th very lightly, it can be correct to open limp because they're making an even bigger mistake in a tiny pot while you invest very little and get away as appropriate.

4) It balances your ranges - Especially when you're seen to open limp and then 3-bet hands - which is always a good thing.

5) In LP - open limp the BI and if ur board looks scarier than his, try to take the pot down... can be dangerous but mostly works and along with point 4 above - when you do this a couple of times, then open limp a real hand - the BI might think you're FOS and peel with a 3-card hand.

It's a great strategy question - I'm very interested to hear what others have to say about it ...

I started an article about why flat-calling first-round raises is frequently a good play in stud variants where it rarely is in LHE. Maybe I should finish it. I could use the $200. This is also a topic I think I could get a good article out of. I'll give one example, but there are plenty of others.

I'll use 8 7 in LHE and (2 8) 7 with one club gone in stud. I limp in with the first hand under the gun all the time because I play in ridiculously soft games and I enjoy gambling. This is exactly the kind of hand that you'd like to see the flop for one bet with, but if it's raised behind you, your implied odds would be shot. You probably wouldn't want to play it UTG in a tough, full ring game. You might raise coming in with it if you thought that there was good chance that you'd steal the blinds, or maybe your opponents aren't giving you enough action, but I think most good players are dumping this hand UTG in a tough, full ring game.

On the other hand, I think that just about all but the nittiest stud players will play any low three-flush with one of their suit out for one bet or less. There are several important distinctions. One, the stud hand has a much better chance of making a flush. I think it's 19% for the stud hand and 6% for the hold'em hand. Another consideration is that a raise--more accurately a completion in this case--doesn't blow your implied odds in stud quite so badly as in hold'em. The completion brings the betting level from some fraction of a bet to one bet, whereas the raise in hold'em brings the betting level from one bet to two. Also, you have one more big bet round in stud where you can collect bets if your draw comes in.

Hopefully, you can recognize other hands where this applies. I will say that you wouldn't be far wrong if you never open-limped in razz (and I rarely do myself), but I open-limp all the time in stud, stud/8, and O/8.

I've just started playing razz and I was wondering if you could expound on why never open limping in razz is more correct vice the other stud variants? (I sort of get why in stud 8 and O8, but not so sure about Stud)

If you open-limp in razz, you give your opponents too good of a price to call. In a loosish stud game, you would probably want to encourage callers with, say, a three-flush. In stud/8, you might want to encourage callers with a good two-way hand. There's only one kind of hand in razz (as opposed to straights and flushes, or lows vs. highs), and you're never that far ahead of the other guy (unless he's playing junk).

There are people on this board who play razz a lot better than I do who will sometimes open-limp. If you never did it, however, you wouldn't be far wrong, and open-raising does make the rest of the hand easier to play.

You should reread SOP and find the 8 separate times Sklansky endorses open limping in razz.

That's true, but Andy B is also true when he says that if you never open-limp in Razz, you're not far wrong.

In non-Razz poker games, it's possible to have a made hand before the Fifth card. You therefore have many more situations where slow-playing is appropriate (say rolled trips or pocket Aces) where you figure to show the hand down most of the time and can find an opportunity later in the hand to spring a trap.

This doesn't really apply in Razz. For example, even if you start with the best possible starting hand, you're happy to win the pot before you've made a hand because you may never make one, and winning the pot on an early street is a huge benefit. If you open limp, you give up one opportunity to take the pot without making a hand and make it that much more likely that you'll have to show down. This is the rationale for why limping should be rare. But rare is different from forbidden.

Limping is occasionally good in Razz for several reasons (read Sklansky), but one example is when by completing yourself you cannot represent a strong starting hand (say you have an Eight up) but the exposed cards both clean-up (improve) your draw and imply that an opponent can have a strong starting hand.

Say you have (A2)8, and there are two Deuces, an Ace and two more Eights out. If you limp and an Ace completes, it only costs you a fraction of a bet to call with a hand that will either improve to a very strong hand or get tossed on the next card, while if you complete and he raises you have to pay a full extra bet to see the next card. Granted the pot is then bigger, but it isn't big enough to continue without improvement, so you're losing an extra SB every time you toss your hand on Fourth.

Conversely, if you improve and villain doesn't, you can put him in the position of making a mistake by continuing on Fourth, and his mistake is a bigger mistake (costs him more) if you haven't added more money to the pot on Third.

So that's one reason.

What about situations where because you are in ep with a lot of babies behind you (and/or at a very loose table) the chances of winning the ante on 3rd st are 10% or less? Also, there's a lot of action between 3rd st and show down, and a lot of opportunities to take down the pot on those other streets. Even if your chances of taking it down are somewhat less, there is not one monolithic "pot" to be had here. Some are bigger than others, and it's all about maximizing your EV.

Hence, "rare," not "forbidden."