Just starting with RAZZ, but doing OK (up $48 over 1700 hands). I know this was a marginal hand to play, but I'm looking for feedback on just how bad it was:

Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 FT (converter)

Hero: $9.70
Seat 2: $20.50
Seat 4: $11.65
Seat 6: $11.10
Seat 7: $11.65
Seat 8: $16.45

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Hero: 7 3 T___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 7___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 7___folds
Seat 6: xx xx K___brings-in
Seat 7: xx xx 6___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8___folds

my thought: I probably shouldn't limp, but I'm thinking of it as a 2-card 7 with some deception value

4th Street - (2.40 SB)

Hero: 7 3 T 6___bets___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 7 J___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx K 3___raises

My thinking: I've got the only 4-card hand, so I have to bet

5th Street - (4.20 BB)

Hero: 7 3 T 6 9___bets___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 7 J 6___raises___calls
Seat 6: xx xx K 3 7___raises

My thinking: Not a good card for me, and the other two both improved, but I've got the best 5 card hand. Plus, there haven't been any wheel cards yet other than my 3. After hesitating, I call.

6th Street - (13.20 BB)

Hero: 7 3 T 6 9 A___bets
Seat 2: xx xx 7 J 6 J___calls
Seat 6: xx xx K 3 7 Q___calls

My thinking: I just got better, so I'm staying in

River - (16.20 BB)

Hero: 7 3 T 6 9 A K___bets___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 7 J 6 J xx___folds
Seat 6: xx xx K 3 7 Q xx___raises

my thoughts: I'm pot committed, so I stay.

Total pot: (20.20 BB - $10.10)

Results (in white):[color:white]

Total pot $10.10 | Rake $0.50

Note: this site shuffles the hole cards.

[/color]

Other than playing it in the first place, it looks like my big mistake was not raising on 6th. Any other thoughts?

go with your first instinct. by the way, calling with a T up is not deceptive. in fact it is the exact opposite of deceptive.

as the hand played out, you should not be betting on 5th or on 7th.

What deception value do you have on 3rd? Your Ten is out there for everyone to see and they can probably figure you for two cards <T if you're playing it.

Check 5th street. K3 raised on 4th which should mean he has a better draw than you. Now he caught the case 7 which we know helped him. As played, 5th is a fold when it's two bets back to you. I'm not sure why Seat 2 didn't complete 3rd if he's got 3 cards better than a Ten but if I give him a 4-card 9 or better and Seat 6 a 4-card 7 on 5th, then your hand is in a distant 3rd.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...%29K37&h4=&h5=

Check-call the river. The pot is huge but when he raises you, you're pretty much never good.

When you are on 5th street - think of the best hand as the one with the best draw. It's a good thought about the babies being scarce, but you have two opponents who seem to have better draws as likely to hit them as you are.

Thanks for all the advice -- it's a learning experience

This just seems a little backward to me, but maybe I'm stuck in HE thinking where the pair is the slight favorite post-flop vs. two overs. Can anyone link me to the numbers that show a good draw beats a made marginal low?

Play around with the razz simulator at propokertools.com.

There are a LOT of cases where the best draw is the best hand on 5th, heads up, but there are also a LOT of cases where it's not, but people think it is. In the absense of dead cards a wheel draw is not a favorite over 87654 although a lot of people think it is. However, a wheel draw is generally even with something like 8732A because that means there are 3 more live outs for the wheel to draw for, and 3 more duplicated cards that will avoid pairing. Add in some favorable up-cards and a wheel draw is often a favorite over a made 8, and almost never behind a made 9 or worse.

The big, BIG difference between razz and holdem is that when you have, say a made 8, and your opponent is drawing to a wheel, his average number of outs is quite high, and a LOT of those outs, you'll have no re-draw to beat him, if your hand is rough. Every rank worse you hand is, you'll add between 0 and 4 outs for him (that is, if you have a 9, he could have four more outs than if you had an 8). Also, since the number of known cards is MUCH larger than in holdem, these additional outs count for more. 10 cleans outs on 6th street in stud is often something like a 1/3 chance of hitting, in holdem, it's more like 1/4.5.

Also, beyond pure odds, a big draw like a wheel draw usually has a distinct playing advantage, due to reverse implied odds. You'll probably have to pay off with your weak made hand, but a wheel draw can fold if he manages to whiff twice.

Ah, but you have to consider it's a micro-limit where everyone completes with any door card under 6, even with 2 hidden bricks. It's deceptive in the "play aggressive at a passive table" mode.

OK, I'm rationalizing a sucky play. I'm doing fine letting the bluffers chase me down w/good hands -- no need to take chances w/weak ones.

JSweetman - I mostly play at this same limit. I understand the competition here.

Calling with a T up is not an aggressive play. You are the first one to put money in the pot voluntarily, so you don't have a situation where someone completed with a low door card and possibly 2 bad ones in the hole.

Its a small pot and you have a marginal hand with a bad up card, with 2 smaller cards left to act. Folding is good here.

(37)T is much different in how it plays than (T7)3.

A variety of four-cards hands are odds favs over "made" hands - but the thing to remember in Razz is: no hand is made until the river. (Except a wheel or some hand where you have mortal boardlock.) You aren't trying to make your hand as much as everyone is trying to make the same hand with the same pool of cards. Seems obvious but it's why Razz is so unique - you might be looking for any spade in HE while the other guy is looking for any 8 for a straight. Now, you are all fighting for the same cards.

So - now on 5th - what are you drawing to and what are they drawing to and if you both make it...are you likely to win even if you get there? If you think they have bricks that's one thing - if they are just drawing to better hands on 5th - you are pretty much behind. Doesn't mean fold - but might save a bet if you can. Some players reraise there as you move up.

Razz simulator